# Can there be happiness without ambition? Source: https://whatismaven.com/useful-ambition/ Published: 2026-01-12 Author: Jeff Sarris --- [Embedded content](https://www.youtube.com/embed/YMVhcxEkeso?feature=oembed) Are you struggling to find happiness? You may be stuck with shallow happiness, when you need to focus on deep happiness. Jeff Sarris and Amara Andrew explore the difference between shallow happiness and deep happiness. They discuss how being present-focused can lead to instant joy but might prevent long-term achievements. They reference Derek Sivers’ philosophy of ‘Hell Yeah or No,’ emphasizing doing things that truly excite you. The hosts also share personal experiences with balancing short-term joy and long-term goals, highlighting the importance of building a brand over time rather than seeking instant fame. They conclude with insights on ambition, objectives, and the value of consistent effort in achieving true happiness. 00:00 Introduction to Shallow vs. Deep Happiness\ 00:35 Meet the Hosts: Amara and Jeff\ 01:13 The Philosophy of ‘Hell Yeah or No’\ 03:08 Conferences and Business Networking\ 05:00 Balancing Short-Term and Long-Term Happiness\ 07:11 Ambition vs. Objectives\ 14:01 Living in the Moment vs. Planning for the Future\ 23:51 Driving Exotic Cars\ 24:06 The Fascination with Ferrari\ 25:42 The Joy of Anticipation\ 26:33 Wrestling and Viral Moments\ 29:54 The Pitfalls of Chasing Virality\ 32:38 Building a Sustainable Brand\ 33:48 The Importance of Hyperlocal Content\ 37:48 Consistency Over Virality\ 48:05 Celebrating Small Wins **Jeff Sarris:** You need present focus to enjoy life, but too much present focus. Can something prevent the deeper happiness of achievement? So today we, today we’re talking about shallow happy versus deep happy. **Amara Andrew:** Welcome back to Useful Not Famous. This is a show where we dive into topics we find interesting and strive to be the most useful, and maybe tongue tied people, you know, **Jeff Sarris:** and try to say something that’s written down that I didn’t memorize. So here **Amara Andrew:** we’re, if you say something, see something, **Jeff Sarris:** see something, say something, say something. See something. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah, it works either way. I don’t know. Who am I? That’s what we’re discovering today. Am Andrew. I am Amara Andrew, and this is **Jeff Sarris:** Jeff Sarris and we are Farmers. **Amara Andrew:** I almost said that **Jeff Sarris:** I, I kind of felt it because whatever you said right before that felt like, uh, a little theme song to farmers. **Amara Andrew:** Damn right. **Jeff Sarris:** I’m not a sponsor. I know. If you wanna sponsor this show, wanna be? Yeah. **Amara Andrew:** So. What was so deep, happy versus short, happy, **Jeff Sarris:** shallow happy versus deep, happy. **Amara Andrew:** So, **Jeff Sarris:** you know, short, happy. **Amara Andrew:** So I guess, **Jeff Sarris:** yeah, let me just reiterate it one more time. Yes. So basically the. That being present focused, that’s being in love, making art. It pushes you towards a present focus of right now. But then ambition is what pushes us toward future focus. And just, uh, just so you know, this comes from hell. Yeah. I know. By Derek Ss. Oh, that’s a good book. Yeah. It’s really good. Derek Sives is such a great thinker. Like it’s, well, **Amara Andrew:** and I love the concept of that if something just like literally one sentence. Oh yeah, **Jeff Sarris:** I know. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. Like. Something you’re doing isn’t a hell yeah. Then it’s a no. And it’s like that is such a beautiful philosophy for life. If there isn’t something where you’re like, hell yeah, I wanna do that, or hell yeah, I wanna go, don’t do it. It’s so simple, and I know that there’s nuance and context, but literally just, if you don’t feel like it, don’t do it. **Jeff Sarris:** I don’t even think there’s nuance or context. I, I really think that’s it. Like the, there’s a whole book where he dives into things like that. But yeah, really it’s, it’s straightforward and I think the simplicity is what makes it valuable. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah, I agree. Like, I think, and I only meant nuance or context if it’s like, uh, I’m smiling if you’re watching this, but I don’t mean it like, as like a happy thing, but like if somebody’s in the hospital, you don’t really wanna go and you don’t wanna be there, but you wanna be there for the person. So then. I guess it’s a hell yeah. But like, you’re also like, no, I dunno. So that’s just all, I mean, yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** That’s a tough, that’s **Amara Andrew:** a, I know I went down a dark path. We should stick to the, the Happys. **Jeff Sarris:** So what is it? It is, um, the ninth. Ninth, **Amara Andrew:** the **Jeff Sarris:** 9th of January. When we’re recording this, like this comes out in a few days, but **Amara Andrew:** is that like the state of happiness next to Kentucky? **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we just passed New Year’s Eve. Yeah. So say you were invited to a New Year’s Eve party. And then you No. Well, yeah, you just decide. Is this a hell yeah. And if that party is not a hell yeah, then it’s a no. **Amara Andrew:** Exactly. **Jeff Sarris:** That’s sort of the simplicity of that. There’s something magical to that. Obviously we each have our own version of Hell yeah, too. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** Which is even more helpful. I think it comes into play with business a lot. Yeah, **Amara Andrew:** well like even how we used to go to conferences all the time for our business. One of my business. One of your businesses? **Jeff Sarris:** Well, no, our **Amara Andrew:** business. One business, **Jeff Sarris:** yeah. They’re Maven. **Amara Andrew:** What **Jeff Sarris:** is maven.com? **Amara Andrew:** Uh, but we would go to a lot of different conferences, mostly just to see friends and hang out. But like when you’re at the conferences, it’s just like so many different options of events and dinners and things you can go to, but a lot of them. Weren’t hell yeahs. And that’s not against anybody. It’s just, it’s 75 people at one table and it’s like, eh, I’m okay. Like I don’t really wanna do that. So we’ve learned, if it not even learned, but just decided if it wasn’t like a, oh hell yeah. Like that sounds perfect. It’s like, yeah, we’re just gonna go do our own thing. So much happier. So much better. **Jeff Sarris:** Well, and we’re not going to conferences right now. I know. So, so like that’s another, it’s even been more **Amara Andrew:** of a Hell yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. Hell yeah. No, it was a hell yeah. Before, and we’ve talked about this on the show, but if, uh. If you’re new here, if you haven’t listened to that episode, which you probably haven’t, because this is a small show, useful, not famous, not very many people, uh, listen, and that’s on purpose, but, **Amara Andrew:** and it’s on our other page as well. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. Because we’ve moved this around a bunch. **Amara Andrew:** Yes. **Jeff Sarris:** But why did we go to conferences before? We went to conferences before? Because what we do for people with Maven is marketing is we’re always there for them. So then what happens when we’re focused on the real estate industry? Realtors go to a lot of conferences when they’re in that ecosystem of the conference sort of circuit. So what do we do? We are always there for them. That’s the thing is we’re always present physically and metaphorically when we work with them. So that was a big part of the why for going. We made a lot of friendships, but then some of those friendships long term. Turn into something more. So it’s dual purpose **Amara Andrew:** sounds so romantic. **Jeff Sarris:** Oh, no. **Amara Andrew:** Turns into so much more. They’re working together. Speaking of short term and long term. **Jeff Sarris:** Mm-hmm. **Amara Andrew:** So shallow. Shallow what? **Jeff Sarris:** Shallow, how **Amara Andrew:** shallow What? Shallow ween. What was it? Shallow. Who? Shallow. **Jeff Sarris:** Shallow happy. **Amara Andrew:** Shallow happy or **Jeff Sarris:** deep happy, **Amara Andrew:** shallow happy or deep? Happy. Okay. So then is that sort of. Is like the corollary for each of those short, happy equals short term, long, happy equals long term. Is that kind of the thinking? **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah, but I think looking at it as present focused and future focused. **Amara Andrew:** Okay. So short, happy is right now, like if I was drinking a cup of coffee right now, that brings me happiness right now. So that is a short, happy. **Jeff Sarris:** Mm-hmm. But that’s not ambitious. Drinking a cup of coffee. Correct. There’s no ambition attached to it. **Amara Andrew:** Correct. Then long happy is **Jeff Sarris:** deep, **Amara Andrew:** happy Jesus. Fuck. **Jeff Sarris:** We talked about this a little bit earlier as short and long, but the sort of shallow deep I think is, I think is a better way to put **Amara Andrew:** it. That so can need like a diagram. ’cause I’m such a visual person. Okay, so then long happy somebody on deep. If somebody’s listening to this, they’re like, get it together lady. Okay, so then long happy is more ambitious, longer term, **Jeff Sarris:** deep, happy. **Amara Andrew:** Fuck me. **Jeff Sarris:** It’s honestly, the terminology does not matter, but yes. Long, happy, deep, happy. Same thing. **Amara Andrew:** Deep, happy, long term. **Jeff Sarris:** Mm-hmm. **Amara Andrew:** Ambition, **Jeff Sarris:** deep work, shallow work. **Amara Andrew:** Oh yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** That’ll make it easy. So deep, happy, shallow happy. **Amara Andrew:** Okay, perfect. Yeah. Deep work is what you do to work on bigger, more ambitious projects. **Jeff Sarris:** Mm-hmm. **Amara Andrew:** So it’s like having deep, happy. I feel like that’s like a weird uh, snow white dwarf. **Jeff Sarris:** No, **Amara Andrew:** it’s, you Keep them in the closet. **Jeff Sarris:** Dip. Happy van. We like whiskey. **Amara Andrew:** Ah, dip poppy. Hey, it’s fucking dip poppy. Okay, I’m gonna get canceled. Deep happy. Nobody even knows that the show exists and I’m gonna get canceled. **Jeff Sarris:** No, that’s on purpose. **Amara Andrew:** Hey, that’s marketing. That’s perfect. Gimme all the attention. Um. Got it. So shallow, happy, deep, happy. Got it. So then we talk about objectives a lot on this show, and specifically, I need to tell you a secret, I am on one today. So we talk about objectives and specifically not having objectives because that leads to. Just better outcomes overall. ’cause also, you can’t be disappointed if you don’t have objectives. But then also **Jeff Sarris:** I just, I don’t wanna touch on that though, because that isn’t the why. **Amara Andrew:** No, I know. That’s one of the, that’s what I’m going **Jeff Sarris:** ancillary things. **Amara Andrew:** That’s what I’m going through. Hear me out. I’m gonna let you finish. But that, uh, fuck, I forgot what it was. Yeah. Anyway, just not having objectives because then you’re actually stunting your progress toward what could actually be a better outcome. Basically LOLT. T-L-D-R-T-G-I-F. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah, I just wanted to say it’s not that you can’t be disappointed. That isn’t the why to not have objectives. No. But yeah, because the only way that you ever get to a new destination is by carving a new path. Yeah. So if you wanna get to a new destination and your objective is a very specific destination, you’re not gonna find the new path to get there. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. You’re not open and receptive to other things. Mm-hmm. So then is having, well, I guess then, yeah, my question, it’s a mute point. Moot point. A mute point. I know **Jeff Sarris:** it’s a silent point. No, but what were you gonna say? **Amara Andrew:** Well, so I was gonna say long term, having the, the idea. For the future that you’re working toward. I felt like there was some sort of a disconnect between not having objectives because if you have more of a longer term thing that you’re sort of working toward or working for, isn’t that just having an objective? **Jeff Sarris:** I think it depends. **Amara Andrew:** On what? **Jeff Sarris:** Well, I’m not gonna tell you that beep, end of the show, but I think objectives and ambition, I think having those words side by side is very helpful because, **Amara Andrew:** well, those are two different things. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. Except they’re like the same concept. So long ambition is a long-term thing. I am a ambitious, I want to build a successful business. I wanna be the best basketball player in the NBA. Like, **Amara Andrew:** which I know you’re going for right now. **Jeff Sarris:** Oh yeah. Right now I’m starting right now. Yeah. **Amara Andrew:** I can tell **Jeff Sarris:** like that’s ambition. Like I want to, I want to be the best. I’d be more, I want be the best basketball player I can be. That’s ambition more than I wanna be. This. Person. ’cause that’s more of an objective. So like a Michael Jordan type. That’s why I say it because again, the book Relentless by Tim Drover phenomenal. Um, but he was and is just very, extremely ambitious. He’s relentless. He’s never going to give up. **Amara Andrew:** Mm-hmm. **Jeff Sarris:** But it wasn’t a direct specific. Thing. I mean, you can say like winning an NBA championship, like that could, that’s an objective, but that’s also an objective that the path to get there is inherently winding. You’re going through what, 82 games a season with an entire team of players and coach and like you’re doing everything you can to get there and what you’re doing to get there changes all the time. So that’s like a, it’s almost like a broad objective being ambition. I think we’re like a narrow objective, like saying I am going to make $33,000 more this year. I’m just trying to pick just like whatever random. **Amara Andrew:** Did you look at my goals sheet? No, **Jeff Sarris:** but like see that’s so hard now. ’cause now I’m like, that is sort of, **Amara Andrew:** see that’s **Jeff Sarris:** it’s ambitious. But **Amara Andrew:** yeah, **Jeff Sarris:** the object, it’s so hard because objectives. **Amara Andrew:** I wonder if we even need to figure out more. So like I feel like I agree overall with the objective thing, but I do also struggle with it a little bit personally. ’cause I, okay, so you can. Wander, like I think that’s very important. And wandering mean. You don’t have a, a stalwart like, this is exactly where I’m going and this is what I’m doing. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. These are the steps. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. That’s, **Jeff Sarris:** that you’re exploring. **Amara Andrew:** Like I believe in not having that, but I believe in having the, the, the exploratory nature of things. However, I don’t feel like you can’t not have. Sort of an objective or a goal rather, I guess not objective, but I have goals with certain things. If I didn’t have those goals, I feel like I’d just be fucking around and I wouldn’t have any sort of clear purpose for me. So I think that’s with the ambition. I don’t know. It’s very, it. I don’t even think those two things work together because I think you need to be ambitious to achieve anything ever. Yes. Like at all. But I think ambitious people have some goals or objectives, but I think it’s, I think, okay, here it is. I talked through it. Verbal processing. Right Now, if you’re so. Like it’s this objective or nothing. Fuck it. I don’t want anything else. That’s the problem for me, where if you’re going for this objective, but then all of a sudden some other crazy amazing opportunity happens because you learned how to do origami or whatever, and it’s like Japan was like, you should come here and be the head of origami or whatever. **Jeff Sarris:** Hi Amara, this is Japan calling. **Amara Andrew:** Hello, **Jeff Sarris:** would you be the head of origami? **Amara Andrew:** I thought you would never ask. Not gonna lie. My origami skills pretty good now anyways, so **Jeff Sarris:** typically you need to do one, but okay, **Amara Andrew:** it’s been something I’ve been enjoying. I do it secretly. You don’t see it. I have a whole pile of origami over there. **Jeff Sarris:** You’re secretly doing origami sh in the bathroom. What are you doing? What are you doing? This be like I shower. I **Amara Andrew:** have a **Jeff Sarris:** secret. I call it shower drama. **Amara Andrew:** I have a secret origami addiction every time. Every time you’re in the office, I’m just, you’re like, what’s that sound right here? Paper flying. **Jeff Sarris:** And then you’re just like, **Amara Andrew:** crane, and you’re like, actually I had a, and I’m like, nothing. Drugs. I don. Anyway, **Jeff Sarris:** so ambition gets us to achievement, I think. I think what we have here is objectives being a long, far off thing. A one step away objective is perfect. Like our objective right now is to record this episode and publish it on Monday. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** So that’s **Amara Andrew:** And become the head of origami in Japan. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. Yeah. But that’s your far off objective. **Amara Andrew:** You look away for a second, **Jeff Sarris:** but I think that’s the thing. So ambition is achievement. We wanna achieve the next step. But we don’t know what two steps away necessarily is. We can have an idea, but we’re not having the objective of, I am going to, for example, I am gonna start our hyperlocal platform because then the next step is this. The next step is wide, wide open, which we’ve proven with our own hyperlocal platform. Yeah, it’s you take that one step toward it and then. Your landscape opens up again. So now the objective can be, I’m gonna take this step and see where it gets me. But if it’s, we have. Unlimited steps in front of us and I’m gonna somehow pick the right one. That’ll get me to that one way in the distance. That’s the objective that we’re against. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. I forgot It’s the whole stepping stone thing. Yeah. So it’s like you’re on one stone and then what are the stones immediately around you? Not what’s the stone? All the way through the middle of the ocean that I imagine down corridor, I imagine **Jeff Sarris:** is there **Amara Andrew:** on the way to Japan. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. So, yeah, the ambition. Yes. So ambition is long term in that we’re constantly striving and constantly achieving. So like stepping stones where the, so that’s the deep happy of achievement. ’cause achievement is never instant. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** But then the instant we still need, otherwise we’re only living in the future. We’re not living in the present. **Amara Andrew:** Right. Do you struggle with which, I already know the answer, so I’m asking, I’m leading the witness. Which do you struggle with more in the moment or long term? **Jeff Sarris:** What does struggle mean? **Amara Andrew:** What do you think it means? Don’t you love that? When somebody like clearly doesn’t even know what the fuck they’re talking about, and then they’re just like, well, what do you think it means? What does it mean to you? Have you heard that in interviews? No. Okay. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. But I’m letting you, uh, talk yourself through this. **Amara Andrew:** Also side note on TikTok, there’s like, not even a trend, but there’s just something where you talk about being ambitious, but you’re not ambitious. You’re ambitious, and that’s all I keep thinking about And moving on. Um, do you struggle more with being in the moment, like specifically with what we’re talking about, like I guess having. Do you struggle more with being content with shallow happy versus deep happy? **Jeff Sarris:** Why are you asking? I guess because I think I could actually answer it depending on what you’re looking, what type of answer you’re looking for, because I think I can take this in completely different directions. **Amara Andrew:** So I’m thinking like business wise specifically, **Jeff Sarris:** but. Narrow down even more. **Amara Andrew:** I don’t know. You tell me. Give me all your answers. **Jeff Sarris:** I don’t phrase it one more time. I want to hear how you say it. **Amara Andrew:** I can’t. So do you struggle more with like, I guess, which do you find more rewarding? Short, happy small. Happy short. Happy or deep? Happy. Fuck, deep. Shallow happy or deep happy? What **Jeff Sarris:** I do? No, I just, uh, I just see that you’re just like, save me. **Amara Andrew:** I’m fine. **Jeff Sarris:** So I **Amara Andrew:** do you struggle, yay. **Jeff Sarris:** Name, like, honestly, I don’t think I do. **Amara Andrew:** Why not? **Jeff Sarris:** Like, that’s the tough part. Like, ’cause I don’t want it to sound, but I’m just confident in what I’m doing. I’m very confident in what I do. I think the shallow, happy, deep, happy for me, and that’s why I was asking the question. I think each thing that I do and achieve is a shallow happy achievement that gets me, that’s what I find it exciting, but then they compound over the long term for a grand achievement. So like, I don’t think I started with either of them, but if you mean. Do you struggle with achievement versus play? Yes. So like play, being like, I want to play more. I wanna like, and play for me is very different than anyone, but like, run, kick, jump, like play, like childlike play in the moment, presence that I wanna do more of and I struggle with because. I need to like carve that out where the being present, like mentally present and uh, doing things to have new achievements. I don’t start with that at all. It’s only the. Other side of it that would be more the whimsical in the moment play type stuff. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah, you’re a very unique being in that. **Jeff Sarris:** I know **Amara Andrew:** you’re part unicorn and **Jeff Sarris:** go on **Amara Andrew:** and set it on your 23 and me. It’s like 85% unicorn. Could you imagine? That’d be so fucking sweet. But then I’d be like, wait, I’m a horse Anyway. I’d be so confused. The Origami Master of Japan is a horse. Okay. I’m sorry. **Jeff Sarris:** A hole in wand. **Amara Andrew:** I know that was such a funny joke. Uh, sorry. I’ve been like off the rails the past two episodes. You can tell I had a little bit of time off where I’m just like. Giggly and stupid. **Jeff Sarris:** Don’t be giggly. **Amara Andrew:** Ew. **Jeff Sarris:** Not time off. But we’ve uh, we have everything dialed really well. We should talk about that in a minute. But first, **Amara Andrew:** yeah, well, yeah, not even time off, just time to think, which has been really amazing anyway. What the hell did you just say? Unicorn? You’re Oh, that’s what, you’re a unicorn. Because you have a very rare ability. ’cause when I asked the question, I was like. No, I already know the answer because you, I just wanted to hear what you said first from the horse’s mouth. Uh, short term, you, you are literally in the moment all the time, and it’s weird, like, I don’t understand it because I’m, I’m here but I’m a hundred miles that way, which I think is just a taming of the brain, honestly. I’m never like in the moment, even if we’re talking, I’m thinking of 85 other things that I need or want to do. I dunno if that’s a character flaw, genetics, hereditary, piecemeal, gin, dore, whatever it is. It’s something **Jeff Sarris:** I’m just letting you process through this. **Amara Andrew:** So I don’t know if that’s just me, if that’s being a woman, if that’s being. In a black shirt, like, I dunno what that is. But then what’s even weirder, you’re so good at holding off long term. Like you would literally the **Jeff Sarris:** like gratification is what people normally call that. **Amara Andrew:** Ugh, that sounds horrible. I’m so like, see, I wouldn’t think I’m in the moment, but I like the. Immediacy because you get that dopamine immediately of certain things, which is very much an addictive personality. Uh, but just having that, like in the moment, I like celebrating life in the moment because you never know what you’re gonna have tomorrow, 10 years from now. Like, you don’t know what’s gonna happen, so why not just celebrate right now? Let’s just make every day a party, which is not good. ’cause that can lead to very destructive behavior. Not me, but I mean, **Jeff Sarris:** I don’t wanna say not, I don’t wanna say bad for that. It’s just different, different than how I approach life. **Amara Andrew:** But people like that typically have like substance problems and things like that because you’re **Jeff Sarris:** could, **Amara Andrew:** yeah, typically could, but from my vantage point, a lot of people do so, but I don’t like thinking long term. It’s like, am I even gonna be around that long? Like who knows? Like, not to be morbid or like depressing, but just. Why not just do it now? Like, let’s just go now. Let’s go buy a Ferrari right now. Not actually, but. I don’t know. I do struggle with the long term of things, but also I think that has to do with like upbringing and a myriad other things we can unpack **Jeff Sarris:** Also, just how funny if we just cut to a cut scene in those of us buying a Ferrari. Like just how, because you said, no, not really. I’m like, yeah, not really. I **Amara Andrew:** literally, I had a thought that I was like, we could just go on Turo right now and like Rent a Ferrari and just throw that in here. Like how funny would that be? Just like. **Jeff Sarris:** Oh, I like you’re also thinking about that because that’s what **Amara Andrew:** a ferri **Jeff Sarris:** sounds like one weekend. Oh it is? Yeah. That’s the only sound like, well, okay, so you have two choices or Arga. Those are the only two. Horn sounds on a Ferrari, **Amara Andrew:** A Lambo is at Luga. **Jeff Sarris:** Hmm. **Amara Andrew:** Don’t be ridiculous. **Jeff Sarris:** Okay. **Amara Andrew:** Come **Jeff Sarris:** on. I guess you have more experience on the Lambo side. I have more experience clearly on the Ferrari side. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. **Amara Andrew:** Duh. **Jeff Sarris:** Anyway, **Amara Andrew:** actually. No, I actually, I have experience with Ferrari side. **Jeff Sarris:** I know. And I’ve driven a Lambo. **Amara Andrew:** Oh really? **Jeff Sarris:** Uhhuh. Like, it’s so funny, like I’ve **Amara Andrew:** driven a Ferrari Uhhuh. It was my cousins. **Jeff Sarris:** Oh yeah, yours was family. Mine was a friend who worked at a exotic car dealer **Amara Andrew:** who, **Jeff Sarris:** exotic who, um, I don’t think was supposed to really let me drive it when we were like 20. But **Amara Andrew:** That’s funny. That was when I first learned, I think I was like 12. And I learned that you actually get driving shoes with your car. **Jeff Sarris:** Oh, for the Ferrari? **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. Like it comes with **Jeff Sarris:** it. Yeah, because that is like Enzo Ferrari is a race car. Uh, like visionary, like he sort of created the racing scene. Like it became, **Amara Andrew:** it was so nice, like, this is a huge tangent, but like in the back you could see the motor, like it was just covered in like, I don’t think it was glass, but it was just covered in like, it was probably glass. **Jeff Sarris:** It had glass or plexi. **Amara Andrew:** You could see the entire inner workings in the back. So fucking cool. I wish I remember what model it was. I actually have a photo of it. ’cause I was just like obsessed with it. **Jeff Sarris:** I feel like it’s like a tester. I don’t know why. That’s just how I, **Amara Andrew:** no idea. **Jeff Sarris:** See it like in the eighties, the Ferrari tester was the whole thing. It’s like red. It has sort of these indentions along the side that are black and then you see the exposed engine. **Amara Andrew:** So it wasn’t that, it was like a dark, like purpley black kind of color. Um, but I remember being in it and it was like. And I was like 10 or something. Like it was quite an experience when I was like, I want one of these. If you just work as hard as his cousin, cousin, whatever **Jeff Sarris:** cousin Eddie. **Amara Andrew:** I know. I was like, I don’t, I don’t wanna say his name. Um, but yeah. Anyway, blah, blah, blah. Where the hell did we, we get his name. **Jeff Sarris:** It sounds like, it sounds like some who, I don’t wanna say his name. I don’t wanna say Peter, **Amara Andrew:** but you gonna find who he is. Um. Anyway, where the hell were we going with that? **Jeff Sarris:** Well, just deep, happy, shallow happy and **Amara Andrew:** yeah, I feel like a Ferrari would make me deep happy. **Jeff Sarris:** See, that’s the thing again. So this is back to it though, like we’ve talked about the, you’ve brought this up, I think on the show even, we just have two different versions of this. You are looking forward to a trip or an event. Oh yeah, I talked about this last week. Or going out to dinner week. Yeah. The looking forward to it is a huge part of your satisfaction. Mm-hmm. So if right now it was like right this second, let’s do whatever, it’s not as satisfying to you as if it was Monday and today’s Friday. And on Monday we’re like, Friday, we’re gonna do it at, uh, three 15. Yeah. Or whatever. Like **Amara Andrew:** three 16, John three 16. **Jeff Sarris:** Um, actually two 14. But whatever. I looked and I didn’t, **Amara Andrew:** uh. Is John three 16? **Jeff Sarris:** It’s John. Well, I mean Austin three 16. That’s what it was. Just whoop your ass. That was the, **Amara Andrew:** I couldn’t remember what it was. I was like, I know, three 16, but I don’t remember the rest **Jeff Sarris:** of it. Stone cold, Steve Austin and the wwf. That was like, he also just real red. That was off the cuff. Off the cuff at uh, what was it at WrestleMania Summer Slam or something. I think it was some, or no, it was. I **Amara Andrew:** thought it was WrestleMania. **Jeff Sarris:** So it wasn’t WrestleMania because he was like a B character. He wasn’t even like anyone. Okay. And he just got on the mic and said, uh, you got your John three 16 to, uh, Jake the snake. Roberts was like a. Uh, religious guy, like this is the only era of wrestling I know is that one little window. But then stone cold before he was really stone cold, grabbed the mic and said, you have your John three 16. Well, Austin three 16 says, I just whooped your ass. And that became one. That’s **Amara Andrew:** so brilliant. **Jeff Sarris:** One second. Like he didn’t have that. It was a, I think they call it a shoot when you’re just. They give you the mic and you talk, you, you just get in character and talk. He didn’t have it scripted. He didn’t have it planned. He said it the next day. People had signs and t-shirts that said Austin three 16, and that sort of made him one of the most successful wrestlers of all time. **Amara Andrew:** That’s so cool. **Jeff Sarris:** And it was a second, like John Cena, he was just interviewed and they were asked like, how do you have the, uh. Like, we’ve seen this, but I never watched wrestling. When he was wrestling. This was like, when I was in high school, I watched wrestling, but his thing was like, you can’t see me. And like he was asked, how did you come up with that? That’s so random. And he sort of tells the story and he’s like, well, you know, I’m a, um, platinum, uh, rapper, recording rapper. And which is also just funny because he just wrapped one day and in the bus with the WWE F at the time. Now it’s wwe. They were just like. Do you wanna like do that? ’cause he was so good at just naturally rapping. So he did, he recorded an album and it was platinum, but he would run the songs by his, uh, brother or cousin or someone, and. While he was running the songs, while he was like sort of like performing a song for his, his sounding board person, he’s like dancing like this with his hand in front of his face. And John Cena just says it to him, man, you just are like so in it. Like when you’re like, look at you doing this. And then he’s just like, you’d never do that on tv. And Jen is like, sure, I’ll try it. And like the next event that he did wasn’t on TV and. He like, whatever. Does his finisher move? No one knew who he was. He wasn’t nobody. He like does his finishing move, does this thing and he’s like, there’s a little pop from the crowd. Like that was interesting. Like why? I’ll try it again tomorrow he does it again. There’s another pop from the crowd. So he is like, okay. He was like Monday Night Raw or whatever the TV show was. He was on etched. He does it another pop and that becomes his thing. Like you can’t see me. No one was watching anyway. He’s like, so why wouldn’t I try it? And then he goes back to his cousin or brother, whatever, and like he was shocked that he did it and then it worked. And that’s forever his gimmick. **Amara Andrew:** I feel like that’s what people are searching for with like viral moments on social media. Like everybody’s looking for that viral thing, but also I find what I find interesting. Neither of them were focused on, oh, well what happens if it doesn’t go viral? Or what happens if it doesn’t? This **Jeff Sarris:** objective? **Amara Andrew:** Exactly. **Jeff Sarris:** It wasn’t the objective to do this or to say, Austin three 16 and have that be my thing forever. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. And like so many people now are trying to go viral on social media for what purpose? I still don’t understand, but. Neither here nor there, but **Jeff Sarris:** I mean, that is sort of the name of the podcast, but go on. **Amara Andrew:** Well, yeah, no, I know. I’m, I’m trying to give Grace, but I think it’s the dumbest thing to be fully honest. ’cause it’s like, okay, well what are you gonna do with that 2 million views? Go on. Like, do you have everything, all your systems in place to capture all those people? No. So what the hell do you care? Anyway, I could go on a whole tangent. That would actually be an interesting separate episode. But, **Jeff Sarris:** but that’s the thing. And we’ve built everything we’ve built for now. Like decades for me. And then getting closer to a decade for you now. All on not being famous. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** And like we know way too many people who’ve had fame and can never monetize it. Ever. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** And have never gotten out of a day job because they focused on the wrong part. **Amara Andrew:** But sorry, what I was saying before, uh, trying to go viral. Uh, you are so scared to try anything. Because you’re so like, well, no. Every single piece of content needs to be perfect and like whether you wanna hear it or not, nobody’s gonna see it. And nobody cares. Even if it’s the best piece of content, nobody’s gonna see it. Nobody’s gonna care for a long time. Eventually people will start to pay attention, but even still, nobody’s really gonna care. Like if you are a service provider and you’re trying to make content. Uh, you just need to try a bunch of different things. Like we have a very specific formula that works for a very specific goal, AKA to get awareness to possibly lead to clients. That’s your end, like you handle that. Uh, all that to say, if you want to have a viral moment, just try all those different things. Like you never know what could be the thing. Like the guy on TikTok that I showed you, he’s uh, he was like. He had his like, I’m trying to even think of how the fuck to explain this without sounding like a lunatic, but he had like his hood over his face and he’s like rocking back and forth and he’s like trying to see how long he can rhyme freestyle. But he’s speaking like, he’s like a Nick Beth character, like one of the witches or something, and he’s like, have you ever seen a duck riding in a pond? Have you ever. Been known to be long John, and like you just keep going. Um, but anyway, just a random guy did that 400 times before and then finally just one of the videos clicked and then it was like he just became an overnight sensation and then was gone. So anyway, don’t go for virality kids. That’s the message here. **Jeff Sarris:** Well, like in service of what is always the question in viral. Inherently, if you’re going for hyperlocal. Like your town or your region has **Amara Andrew:** province, **Jeff Sarris:** thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of people, but not billions. You’re not trying if like your market is not the world. **Amara Andrew:** No. **Jeff Sarris:** So like if you’re reaching people all over the world, all over the country and you’re going for hyperlocal, you’re doing it completely wrong. Mm-hmm. Because as soon as you do that, you’re never gonna get people local ever again. And all we do is. For our clients, our top bananas, all we do is make it so they get in front of the right people at the right time. That’s it. You don’t want more. You don’t want different than that because as soon as you do it different from that, how are you gonna reign that in? Like even if the virality works and sustains, you don’t have your actual customers coming in. But more than likely it won’t sustain. Then you have this just sporadic group that’s very tiny. Not very many people, but they’re all over the country or world. Exactly. Either way, it’s a problem. **Amara Andrew:** Well, yeah, and they don’t feel that connection with you. So like doing hyperlocal content, if you literally become like the digital mayor of your area, people feel a connection with you immediately because it’s like, okay, this person. Cares about their community. They’re keeping tabs on all the things, and they’re sharing it with me where maybe I’m not as brushed up on things and I wanna be, but I don’t have the time to read all the news articles or keep up with all the Facebook groups or whatever it is. **Jeff Sarris:** And you said their community? My community, yes. **Amara Andrew:** Yes. **Jeff Sarris:** Like that person is talking about where I live. Nobody talks about where I live. Like that’s so powerful. **Amara Andrew:** Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, it’s like, oh my God, somebody I know that street. But when you see it in a video format. It feels so different. Like, it’s almost like when, uh, if you have like a friend and they end up being on TV or being in movies or something like that, or popping off on TikTok, like whatever it is, and then you see them in person, you look at them a little differently. It doesn’t mean that you treat them differently and maybe you don’t and that’s fine. But to be fully honest, all of us, there’s just a different look where you look at the person and you’re like, oh, like again. Maybe you treat ’em differently, maybe you don’t. But there is just a different overall vibe and that’s what happens with people in your town. Maybe, I don’t know, the person that gives you coffee or whatever. They see you and then they’re just like, oh, hi. Like, I know you. I saw you on tv. Meaning the TV in your pocket. **Jeff Sarris:** Uhhuh. Yeah. Like we have a client who. Is like she loves ice cream. Ends up ice cream, comes up for hyperlocal stuff and she was at an ice cream shop almost an hour away from where she lives. But her market obviously is big, but she droves up to the, to the counter and the young girl behind the counter, like maybe like 18, 19 years old, looks at her and like, and she’s like close to retirement age. So this is polar opposites of the age range and looks at her and says. Are you so and so? And then, then she’s just like, oh yeah. And she’s like, I follow you on TikTok. I love your videos. And it’s one of those things that’s like you, someone could, uh, misunderstand that and say, oh, that person isn’t in the market for X. So say it’s real estate. They’re not in the market to buy or sell. They’re 18, 19 years old, but who’s in the market to buy or sell in five, six years? 18, 19 year olds, like they are the main market. Like there’s a, you’re, you’re getting, you’re capturing people early with your brand and, and recognition, and then they trust you forever. **Amara Andrew:** And if her parents are looking for like a realtor and then she’s like, I actually follow realtor on TikTok. I know it sounds weird, but hear me out. I mean, there’s just so much opportunity for that. So yeah, **Jeff Sarris:** this is why brand matters more than anything. Yes. ’cause if it’s one viral video and then it’s just like, oh, didn’t you do that one thing? Aren’t you the person who. Jumps off of trampolines in the pools uhhuh. And it’s like, oh yeah, that’s me. I say, there’s no connection. You’re just like, you’re a demic. **Amara Andrew:** Exactly. **Jeff Sarris:** Um, who, what was it? **Amara Andrew:** It was like Dogface four 20, uh, during COVID? Yeah. Where? Oh, we saw him at Vicon. **Jeff Sarris:** Mm-hmm. **Amara Andrew:** But he was the guy who was drinking cranberry juice on the skateboard with the Fleetwood Mac song playing in the background. That was basically it. **Jeff Sarris:** Yeah. What can you turn that into? **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** Like people recognize you, **Amara Andrew:** which you can do brand deals and things, but then you’re constantly. You’re chasing that high of keeping that virality, which is maddening because it just, it will never, **Jeff Sarris:** you never can, **Amara Andrew:** no, it won’t happen. Like that is completely impossible. And then you also need to keep working with brands to keep you relevant. It’s a totally different. Job and business. And you have to be very, like, that almost has to be, your objective is to go into that brand or that business like that, or not brand, go into that business just like that. Um, ’cause it’s a very specific type of skillset that you need to have. **Jeff Sarris:** Well, and it’s, I make viral moments. If that’s what you do, that’s one thing. But like that guy specifically, he was useful to one brand. Ocean spray cranberry juice, and he got paid by ocean spray cranberry juice, some sum of money. **Amara Andrew:** Mm-hmm. **Jeff Sarris:** Once, twice, maybe three, like years ago. They’re not like, Hey, you’re still our guy. Like, let’s, let’s make, I’m not a great reference, but let’s make you, make you our Jared from Subway. You know, like a thing where we use your likeness for a decade or 15 years. It’s no, you had your viral moment. We’re going to jump on your trend here. Made your few bucks give you. Even fewer back and then we’re good. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Like you did that for us free marketing and we gave you a little bit because of something we asked you to do on the coattails of that. **Amara Andrew:** Right. **Jeff Sarris:** Whereas, but you’re never turning that into a thing. **Amara Andrew:** And if you can, that’s amazing. That’s massive. Like if you turn that into a brand and like build that and figure out like a Hawk Dua, **Jeff Sarris:** I mean she got the closest **Amara Andrew:** she had. Everything lined up. Like having Whitney Cummings ready to like, or no, she made a podcast for her. **Jeff Sarris:** Mm-hmm. And Whitney Cummings is a very successful comedian, writer, director, producer, actor. Like she does a lot of stuff. **Amara Andrew:** She’s brilliant. Like she is. I love her. Uh, she has a very noble shit. Sensibility. So if you don’t like aggressive, strong women, or not even aggressive, if you don’t like strong women, probably not for, **Jeff Sarris:** she was, we were born on the same day. Exactly. Same day. Same year. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. You’re twinsies birthday girls, just these same. Um, but anyway, but she was the one that got closest and even she didn’t turn it into anything. And I think now she has an OnlyFans, which fine, whatever, do whatever you want, but it’s not understanding the business of it and not capitalizing on that. And then. Turning it into something which is very difficult. Like I’m not saying it’s not ’cause trying to make that parlay and that to bridge that gap is very difficult. **Jeff Sarris:** So I would say it’s nearly impossible. So not even that you didn’t understand it, but it doesn’t matter what resources you have behind it, no one really cares who you are when you’re the person who had this. Yeah, two and a half second viral comment that. The video went viral because of words that you said. **Amara Andrew:** So someone, well, no. Okay. This isn’t even a viral moment. I was gonna say someone who has bridged that gap really well is a person on TikTok named Alex Earl. She, which **Jeff Sarris:** off mic I need to tell you about a little thing that might be an issue right now. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. I already know. I’m all in on my, I know everything. I know too much. But I love her storytelling style. I followed her since COVID, basically like while she was still at college, when she, her videos kind of sucked. There was just something where I was like, she’s actually really interesting to watch. And it was just the way that she talks about things like it feels like you’re like besties together. Now. She’s done Super Bowl commercials. She’s been on dance Dancing with the Stars. She was, uh. Ambassador or maybe related like in the business realm with Poppy, the prebiotic soda thing. Like she’s done all these amazing things. **Jeff Sarris:** Not I Poppy. **Amara Andrew:** No, but granted she comes from like a very well connected family. So she has had certain legs up that maybe other people wouldn’t **Jeff Sarris:** just trace of words. But real quick. It wasn’t a viral moment. It was, that’s what **Amara Andrew:** I was just gonna say. Yeah, because like she had a couple videos that. Went viral, but it wasn’t that same like gimmicky, like hak, like that kind of thing. That’s a, it’s two very different. Like Alex Earl, she built a brand. She is building a brand **Jeff Sarris:** consistently over the long term. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. Like she’s been making basically the same exact type of video for 5, 6, 7 years maybe now. And it’s. Doing your makeup. It’s a get ready with me where she does her makeup and then she does storytelling and it’s either one long story spilling the tea on different things or just filling you in on her life **Jeff Sarris:** and then cleaning up the tea off the floor that she spilled. **Amara Andrew:** No, no. She’s like, just leave it there. That **Jeff Sarris:** floor is a mess. **Amara Andrew:** It’s sticky, it’s gross. But she has a doggy and the doggie can clean it up. No, but then, uh, then she also does like get ready with me, so like picking outfits and things like that. But it’s just, it’s such an interesting, I guess those are two very different. Things where Alex has this brand and I want to be part of this brand, even though **Jeff Sarris:** from the beginning before it was even really figured out yet. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. Like even though she’s. Kind of the opposite of somebody that I would typically follow, like on paper. But I do love those videos. There’s just something about it that I find endlessly fascinating. Also, she lives in Miami and she went to University of Miami, so I’m like, maybe that’s it. Uh, ’cause we love Miami. But anyway, I just, she’s done a really great job and she just keeps growing and like has treated it like a business which. I find super respectable. Yeah. Even though she catches a lot of flack. **Jeff Sarris:** Well, and that like that is the example there. Like you can look at the Kardashians too. If you were like, Kim Kardashian had a sex tape. That’s why she’s famous. Well, I mean, she did hundred hundred. There’s so hundred thousand things since then. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** Like that could have been a, a spark, which could or could not have been on purpose. They know what they’re doing. Yeah. So like I, I’m pretty sure it was, I feel like it was deliberate. ’cause you see Paris Hilton’s, what happens from that? And it’s like, oh, I could do the same, so whatever. But that wasn’t a moment that I’m gonna live on forever. Mm-hmm. It’s, that is a thing that get a little more attention. What we do for people is get them the attention and the people they need attention from **Amara Andrew:** same exact way. **Jeff Sarris:** And then, I mean that’s usually typically the way we do it. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** We start, we put it on V checks, we lead. Okay. Sex tape. Is that what you want? **Amara Andrew:** We’re like, okay, so this is guaranteed a way in, this **Jeff Sarris:** is, we’ve been doing this since the nineties. People, it’s **Amara Andrew:** we plenty of VHS. **Jeff Sarris:** You were six years old recording sex tape for people. This is, this is our thing people. Okay. But. Like It’s just so different. Yeah, so different. It’s this deliberate action. Consistent action over time. There’s ambition, like virality, an accidental viral hit is an ambition. That’s, that would be the shallow happiness, the shallow near term thing. Mm-hmm. And then the deep happiness. The deep ambition. The deep creation of something. You can use a viral moment or you can do it without virality. Someone like Seth Godin is one of the most prolific marketing writers of all time. He’s written so much, so many books, so many blog posts, everything. And his big thing is I’ve never been viral. I’ve never once went viral. Yet in the marketing sphere, you’d be hard pressed, especially copyright marketing, copy marketing. You’d be hard pressed to find someone who has not heard of him. But he’s been consistent and he is proficient at what he does, and he’s done it since, I think he started blogging in like 1999, and that’s after he already had built businesses and things in marketing. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. **Jeff Sarris:** So, **Amara Andrew:** well, that’s how you build anything, a brand, a business, whatever. And that’s, that’s the type of person that you listen to and trust. So like if you’re a small business owner or a realtor listening to this. Focusing on the long term, the, the deep happy. I almost said shallow. I was like, fuck. Focusing on that, that long term gain of what you’re building, like we all want that quick dopamine hit. Oh, I got 50,000 views immediately. **Jeff Sarris:** Or the silver bullet, that’ll fix it all. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. Or like, I got so many likes and so many comments and so many dms. Then next day, nothing. It’s so easy to feel dejected from that and feel like you’re not making forward progress. But brand, what do you say? Brand is what people think and say about you when you’re not around. I quoted you quote the Maven, but it’s so hard because brand is like this. It’s an intangible. Gas around you. Maybe not gas, but you can’t see it or feel it or maybe even quantify it sometimes, but you know it exists. You know it’s there, but you can’t put your finger on it and be like, I know, like this is gonna pay off in the long term. It’s like, well, if I keep working hard and I keep trying to focus on this, this, this, and this. It will amount to a brand. It just, it all takes time. **Jeff Sarris:** Everything takes time. And I like the thought of being like, that person has some invisible gas around them. And then, and then someone else is like, wait, do you mean his aura? **Amara Andrew:** Or it’s like, **Jeff Sarris:** no, I, I do mean invisible gas. I’m pretty sure Taco Bell is in that, Hey, **Amara Andrew:** I’m not into that woo shit. It’s invisible gas or nothing. **Jeff Sarris:** But yeah, what people brand is what people think and say about you when you’re not around. And that’s what we build. That’s what we’ve done. That’s what I’ve done forever. It’s the only thing. It’s why people come to us. **Amara Andrew:** Oh yeah. Like we **Jeff Sarris:** have somebody sort of sight unseen. Yeah. **Amara Andrew:** Like we had somebody, uh, that I was talking to the other day and they were, this is like now time three or four or five that they’ve been recognized. Out in public. Oh **Jeff Sarris:** yeah. **Amara Andrew:** And it’s been like, oh, are you blank? The da da da realtor, because we have a very specific brand for them. And, uh, it maybe didn’t click for that person, but I’m like, that’s your brand. Like, that’s, it’s working. It’s just, it’s taking time when maybe, uh. Maybe it doesn’t feel like it sometimes. **Jeff Sarris:** Well, because it’s little **Amara Andrew:** incremental steps. Exactly. It’s baby steps. It’s not gonna be this like watershed moment where it’s like the angels sing and the trumpet sound, and you’re like, oh my God, this is great. **Jeff Sarris:** But like you said, too. You get that little hit your little sweet, but you get that hit say of like lots of likes or comments, whatever. But then you move the finish line, that was your finish line. It was like, oh, if I could only get this, this many followers, this many whatever, exactly. The moment it happens, your finish line is moved further and it’s like, well wait. All the work we did to get here can’t be. Understated. I say we, I’m not talking about Maven, like not us, like we like in our own heads, like I just hit this new goal, this new finish line, but now let me move it way in the future and then feel bad about myself. **Amara Andrew:** That’s a really good point. **Jeff Sarris:** Like that’s the problem is we’re constantly, we’re ambitious and keep pushing, but these aren’t finish lines. Like these are just. Growth points. Yeah. These are achievements along the way. Some achievements will be really high, some achievements will be very minor, but every single one matters. **Amara Andrew:** Yeah. And you can’t have your, your happiness wrapped up in any of it, because if it is, then you’re, you’re screwed from the get-go like that. You will never feel good or happy with anything that you have, and you should celebrate your tiny wins and your little successes. Obviously don’t throw like a whole party for it and be like, oh my God, this is great. Or do if that’s what you want, like whatever. Um, but just don’t tie your happiness to all those different things because that’s a losing battle and you’re gonna feel bad all the time forever. Just be content exist and things will work out. **Jeff Sarris:** I mean, and **Amara Andrew:** work hard **Jeff Sarris:** with that. We’ll wrap. It’s almost 50 minutes. This is a long one. Good gosh. But we had a lot to talk about, but we will see you next week. **Amara Andrew:** And another thing. Bye.