Location of the Mona Lisa discovered?!

The location of the Mona Lisa may have been identified?! What?! Plus, we're also looking at a 17th-century tile mystery and how AI is helping identify fake artworks on eBay.

Welcome back to Bye Amara. This is a weekly news show… Well, no, it's not, but I'm going to talk about that in a minute.

This is a new show, rather, where we look at some of the weird, strange, and downright odd things that have happened in the art and history fields. I'm your host and personal curator, Amara Andrew.

Welcome back! It has been quite a bit of a hiatus. You'll notice if you've heard the show before that the intro was very different and not what I typically do.

And you could tell I tripped over all of my words. So, sorry, my volume is very low. I can't hear myself, but you could probably hear me very well.

I was probably shouting into the mic, so I apologize.

But, hi! It's been so long. There will love you, To say non-adiós.

It has been quite a bit. I'm very rusty at this. This is already going to be a very difficult episode.

I can already tell. But hello. How have you been?

I'm so sorry. I have not been here. It has been

Crazy busy. I'm going to get into a story update in a little bit, I think. I totally didn't even write notes for it, so we're just going to free ball it and see how that goes.

But, business has been booming for me. So I have a videography business that I do and we primarily film with realtors, so we actually fill- like fly to people to film with them. So, I- we've been- my boyfriend and I, Geoff, we've-

Boyfriend and I, Geoff? Boyfriend Geoff and I. I, Geoff.

You? I give up. But we've been flying everywhere.

Literally since the last episode of Bye Amara, which was in February, February 14th, it- we've been to eight different states with multiple cities within those states, and

Two different countries. I went on my first international journey of my life, last month in April. Also, just to give you context for how busy we've been, in April, we were only home for 6 days total out of the entire month.

So, it's been very, very busy, but I've- I love it. Like, it's- it's awesome. I'm so, like, thankful for everything, but it's just

Been a little chaotic, so that's why I've had to put the podcast on hiatus. I am going to try to bring it back. I know I said that last episode and then it was like 3 months later, but I think I figured out a better formula that's going to work, but we'll see.

Blah, blah, blah. You don't probably give a shit. So, anyway, where the fuck was I going with that?

I'm also trying to do minimal edits, so there will probably be some awkward silences

Or me just tripping over my words, but that's just how it goes. So, anyway, that's what I was talking about. International travel.

I went on my first international travel. Yes, I'm 31 years old and have never been out of the country before. Shame, shame.

I've had a lot of other shit going on, but it has been very exciting. Or it was very exciting. We went to Rome, Italy

For my dad's 80th birthday. Yes, he is quite old. He is an artifact in and of himself.

It was very fun. I went with my dad, my brother, and then my boyfriend, Geoff. Me, Geoff.

He, Geoff. No me, Geoff. That was a callback to earlier, if you remember.

That was probably just really awkward. I'm just going to whisper in your ear. Hello,

I love you. Let me tell you your own name. Anyway, holy fuck.

Okay, erase all of this so far. So, Rome was really fun. We mostly did, like, the touristy things and my dad is old, so he can move well.

Like, he still runs every morning. He runs, like, a mile a day or something. From his fears.

And

He still runs, but he's- his- like, he's old. Like, he can't really move that much and we're walking, like, miles a day, which he was such a trooper for it. The cobblestones definitely got to him, cuz, like, his hips and knees and shit are just all fake at this point.

So, he did really well. We went to mostly stayed in Rome, specifically. We went to, like, Trevi Fountain, Pantheon, obviously, like, all that shit.

Then we actually took a little,

Oh, then the Colosseum, obviously. We went to- there's a really great- okay, sorry. Side tangent.

There was a really great gluten-free restaurant by the Trevi Fountain. If you're gluten-free, you have to check it out. I think it was called Pizza in Trevi and it's, like, the ultimate tourist place, but genuinely the food was so fucking good.

Like, and just knowing that they had a dedicated gluten-free menu was awesome. They were actually surprisingly really great with gluten-free stuff in Italy. I just- I wasn't quite sure and, like, I had heard that they were good, but, you know, you, like, hear stuff and then it's, like, not even remotely close.

But it was very, very good. I got addicted to limoncello spritzes. Those were, like, my favorite things, so now I'm not drinking alcohol for a very long time cuz I had quite a few.

What else?

Yeah, it was really fun. Oh, Colosseum, fucking rad. That was probably one of the highlights of the trip for me.

Also, we took a little, day trip. A little day trip, it was 13 hours, which is a very long tour, but we took a day trip down to, Positano and, like, Sorrento and that kind of little area, the Amalfi Coast.

Positano was adorable. It was super fucking touristy, unfortunately, but I could see what it used to be and it was really, really cute. I absolutely loved it.

There was a sandal shop there that I really wanted to go to get custom sandals and they were so cool! Like, they actually make it to the size of your feet, which, honestly, that was the thing I was, like, most excited for. So that was really fun.

I definitely enjoyed it. Got to see a lot of art, obviously. I was just, like, "Let's go to all the museums!" We went to the, it was a crypt of Friar, like, Capuchin monks, also, which was fascinating.

It was I'm really good with macabre stuff, like, I actually enjoy it and I like the- the thought of everything.

Excuse me. But going into that crypt, I don't know what it was. I think it was something in, like, the air pressure.

Also, the time change was awful on us. Like, I could not stay awake for the life of me. I was so thrown off.

But we went into the crypt and something about it I just, like, felt really off in there. I- I honestly couldn't even fucking tell you what it was, but just it's essentially all the bones of dead people. Maybe I was

Contemplating death or something. I don't know. It really freaked me out, not in a good way, but it was really cool to see, though, so I highly recommend it.

They say don't take photos, so I don't have any photos of it, but it was very cool. Oh, and we went to the Vatican, obviously. Just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We did all the touristy shit and it was really fun and it was special to get to share it with, like, all four of us, just because

We don't really see each other that often, like, all of us together. So, I don't know. It was really fun.

I enjoyed it. I would definitely go back, and travel internationally again. Yeah, I enjoyed it.

Okay, so let's get into story updates. This was from fucking forever ago and I literally forgot about this part until I hit record and then I was, like, " shit." So, I don't even remember what episode it was, so if you're watching the video version of it,

This is what episode it was. I'll probably forget to do that, too, so just go find it. But essentially the whole story was it's called the Vesuvius Challenge and there were various different prizes, that were So, the Vesuvius Challenge was Mount Vesuvius erupted.

Oh, we also went to Pompeii. Fun fact. So, we went there.

There was a 2,000-year-old scroll that

Essentially Okay. This is why I do my research at times. Trying to do it in the moment is not great.

So, there's the Vesuvius Challenge and it was a grand prize of $700,000 where people could use artificial intelligence to read these scrolls that were kind of I think they were calcified where the lava covered them, but then they were actually kept intact within this volcanic ash or whatever. I'm doing a great fucking job and I know it.

So,

But essentially the gist was to have to incentivize researchers to want to read these, and decipher them so we could figure out what the actual contents were of these scrolls. So, $700,000 was the ultimate grand prize, and actually somebody won the prize, which is very exciting. Oh, the whole point also is that you can't actually open these scrolls because they're so fragile, so they're literally just, like, stuck as they are.

So, what you would have to do is

Peel it back, but, like, using computer models and things like that to be able to read it. So, someone won it. Someone won the $700,000 prize and it was actually three people, it looks like.

So, it was Youssef Nader, Luke Farritor, and Julian Schilliger. They won

The ultimate grand prize on Monday, February 5th, so this was quite a while ago. So, Farritor and Nader each received awards for independently deciphering the ancient Greek word "porphyras," meaning purple, and then Schilliger or Schilliger, I don't know, won three prizes for working on a tool known as the Volume Cartographer that further enabled the three-dimensional mapping of the scroll's papyrus, which is really fucking cool.

So, hopefully now this will actually

People will be able to use these things to decipher a little bit more of what's in the scroll or these scrolls, rather, cuz there are a shit ton of them. To date, research have- researchers have managed to read approximately 5% of the scroll's text, but they aim to decode 90% by the end of 2024. They also hope to uncover more text from the other 800 scrolls that were enclosed in volcanic debris.

Very nice. I'm really excited to see what

Is actually gleaned from these scrolls, just because you don't know if it's going to be art culture references, if it's going to be scientific. A lot of people think it's going to be arts and culture, which I think is fascinating. So yeah.

That is the only update I have. I'm sure there's more in that news story, but I just gave up because I wasn't prepared for that part, so let's just get straight into the show.

Over 40 paintings for sale on eBay were identified as fakes using AI. This is fascinating to me. So, there's so much anxiety about the use of AI, specifically in the art field, which I found a little ironic.

I guess maybe not ironic, but I found it interesting. That there's so much anxiety about the use of AI, like that it's going to, you know, completely eradicate creative disciplines and people's jobs and things like that. But I think it's also interesting because it can be helpful in certain respects and this is one of them.

Possibly. I'm going to tell you about my reservations, in just a second about why this may or may not be helpful, but what we're talking about right now, is a series of, like, over 40 paintings that were on for sale on eBay. Some of these were attributed to the likes of Monet and Renoir, among others, and one work was listed as Forest with a Stream by Monet and was priced at $599,000.

Another one was A Study by Renoir and was priced at $165,000. On eBay, mind you.

Dr. Carina Popovici, CEO and co-founder of Art Recognition, applied, quote, "cutting-edge artificial intelligence" technology, end quote. I don't know why, I always find it so funny when it's, like, "cutting-edge.

Whoa." It just sounds so cheesy to me, even though I know it's not, it just sounds cheesy. But she applied AI, tech through Art Recognition, that's, like, a- it's a company, I'll talk about that in a second. So, they applied the AI to photos on eBay and found up to 40 paintings had a high probability of not being authentic.

And she said that this is just the tip of the iceberg, that there is probably a shit ton more on eBay, which I am not surprised by. Even though, obviously, eBay has an anti, counterfeit like thing on tag on their website, but, obviously, you can only do so much, especially with paintings, it's kind of hard to tell. So Art Recognition is a service that was created to help with art authentication, hence the name.

It's a software that works by uploading a photo of the artwork in question, and then their AI will be able to read the photo, read the, painting or the artwork. I'm not exactly sure if it applies to sculpture as well, but I guess attribution of sculpture isn't as highly sought after. But it'll read the image, the painting that's in the photograph, and then be able to tell you, "Oh yeah, this is a da Vinci," or "No, it's not a da Vinci." So, up until now, researchers primarily have been able to do art analysis, or art recognition, rather, art authentication.

See? Little rusty. But up until now, researchers have been able to do art authentication by, primarily, two different ways.

I'm not sure if there are other ways, but maybe there are. But the primary one for a very long time was formal analysis, meaning you'd look at the physical characteristics of an artwork. So, that's why in art history classes to this day, formal analysis is a really big component of it, for a wide variety of reasons.

But that was, like, traditionally the method that was used to be able to be, like, "Oh yeah, that's totally by da Vinci," or "No, that's not," cuz you'd look at brushstrokes, you'd look at how the figure was modeled, you'd look at shadows, you'd look at lighting, you'd look at various different things, like the glazes that were used, or glazes.

Rusty! But all the various different things that were used and the methods, so you'd be super familiar with what and how an artist or a time period or a location, even, how they would create their artwork. So, like, even ceramics and things like that.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, that's what you would do. Now, in more modern times, scientific analysis was also included in this, so testing, like, the pigments, or the frame that was even used, or various different parts of the artwork, testing it to see if it's from the correct time period, or even the location, you can tell a wide variety of different things from that.

So, typically, it was just these two methods that were used to be, like, "Oh yeah, that's totally a-" or I guess nothing's ever 100%, but that appears to be a blah, blah, blah, or it comes from the workshop of blah, blah, blah. So now with this third tool, you may not even need to physically be in the room with the artwork, which is bonkers to me, cuz the other two methods, like, you have to be in very close proximity to the artwork, obviously.

You need to be either staring right at it and looking into its little soul, or you need to be taking pieces of its little soul and looking at it in under a microscope. I almost hit my microphone. Haha.

I'm an idiot. So now with this third tool, you do not have to be in the same room, which is so weird, but I guess it makes sense. I'm- not "I guess it makes sense," it does make sense.

I'm thinking ahead. My brain is already, like, out there. I'm optimistic about the technology, but just knowing that AI can have hallucinations makes me kind of second guess this technology.

Like, I'm all for it if it can actually help with identifying artworks, cuz this is a really big problem in the field that people get screwed out of a bunch of money by buying this fake painting, or this fake artwork, or whatever. But because AI can have these hallucinations, like I just said, where they don't actually know the answer for something, and instead the AI will just generate a fake answer, which is very worrisome, especially if you're just, "Oh, that's not actually a da Vinci." Like, I'd be very curious for, which I'm sure they've probably done this, but for the people who have created this software at Art Recognition to actually test it against known like, the Mona Lisa.

We know that's the Mona Lisa. Testing that against other ones. I- I have no idea how they trained their models, honestly, so they probably did this, like I said, but I would just be fascinated to know how actually accurate this is, just because, you know, you don't want to fuck with something that's, like, in a that actually is an artwork from an old master, or from a famous artist, or blah, blah, blah.

So, also,

Excuse me. One item has actually been removed from eBay amidst this news, so I guess we're just going to, like I said, see where this goes and, hopefully, as AI is getting better and better, then there'll be less anxiety about if AI's actually good with authenticating artworks. But we will see.

On to our next story.

There is going to be a whole lot of Polish in this story and I apologize ahead of time. It's very funny because I am exactly, I think, 48% Polish, but, obviously, I don't fucking speak Polish. I speak French.

I'm going to get cancelled by YouTube. So there is a museum in Poland and they just received a very strange, anonymous package, but also very lovely package. Warsaw's Royal, apologies for mispronunciation, there's going to be a whole hell of a lot of it, so I'm just sorry.

I suck. What can I do? Warsaw's Royal Łazienki Museum, which is a historic park and palace complex in the Polish capital of Warsaw, they received 12 late 17th-century Dutch tiles that once decorated the baths of the palace.

This is so fucking cool. Like, I would love to get this in the mail. Anyway, I said, though, that these tiles were sent anonymously, which they were, so that's kind of, like, the ongoing mystery of this, but so far we know that they came from Canada, with love.

Or maybe. But that's literally all we know. So, these are a series of really beautiful white, which I'm assuming that these are porcelain tiles, but, again, not 100% certain because they still have a lot of tests to run and blah, blah, blah.

But these are super beautiful. I'm looking at the at them on my computer right now and I will have them up for you here. So, yeah.

Just very beautiful white tiles with scenes painted in blue on them, or included, however they're included. I'm not a tile expert, I'm going to be very honest with you, but I think they're very pretty. Some of these have small cracks in them, some have very big cracks, and some are missing entire portions of them.

And, typically, for tiles of this period, which we're going to talk about in a second, where these actually may have come from and originated from, but biblical scenes were super popular at the time period, so 17th century is when these were assumed to be created, so, like, 1690 to 1700 about, so, for this specific style of tile, biblical scenes were really popular, specifically shepherds, which you can actually see in the tile itself amongst a wide other variety of different scenes.

Basically every single scene, though, has a tree in it, which I found fascinating, and each corner has, like, a little floral motif just to kind of decorate it.

Excuse me, that was gross. So then, like I said, some have shepherd scenes, some have just people standing and talking to each other, seemingly. I do wonder kind of what the narrative story is and if each of these tiles within the palace, including, like, this 12 and then all the other ones that are still in the bath pavilion, and the ones that are missing, which we'll talk about in a second, I do wonder if there is sort of a narrative arc, cuz it really looks like there could be.

There's even a guy standing staring at a ship out in the distance, which could also be a nod to where these tiles came from. I'm teasing all these things. Haha.

Anyway, so these were very, very popular at the time period. So, first though, where did these tiles go in the first place? Like I said, they were original to the palace, presumably, again, not 100% certain, and I don't speak Polish and I don't read Polish, so I had some trouble with this story.

So it's believed that these tiles were stolen when Nazis plundered and pillaged Poland during World War II. Some of the other tiles from the bath pavilion were scattered elsewhere and are still missing. Some actually survived the fire of the palace in 1944.

It was set ablaze, just like most other fucking buildings in the area at the time. And then you also have these little dozen that made their way home, which is so cute. So, the palace and ground were originally created around 1720, I think 1723 is what I saw.

Sorry, this is a very Polish name and I apologize. Stanisław Her- Stanisław Herakliusz Lubomirski, I'm just embarrassing the shit out of my ancestors, I'm so sorry. Well, you should have taught me Polish, so there you go.

So, anyway, Lubomirski originally commissioned the now famous bathing pavilion where these tiles were located. So, he was the original person that built this. He built this entire palace and grounds.

It's really beautiful and it's even more amazing that they survived World War II, cuz most other buildings, like I said, burned to shit, gone forever. So, this survived. The painting, though, was made famous when his successor, Stanisław August, pretty easy, expanded them in beautiful Baroque fashion, allegedly.

A spokesperson from the museum states that they think that these tiles were created around 1690 to 1700, like I said, in Utrecht, which is in the Netherlands, famous, legendary for their tiles. That, that I do know for a fact. Like I said, I'm not a tile expert, but I do know that specifically, just because it was huge at the time period.

So, which would make these Delft, Delft tiles. Tongue-tied. So these would be Delft tiles.

These were super popular all over Europe from 1665 to about 1800, and a shit ton were exported. They made their way to, like, Northern Germany, Sweden, Russia, Denmark, just a wide variety of places because of access to waterways, obviously, Netherlands, lots of water, blah, blah, blah, and because of the Dutch Republic, lots of sailing, blah, blah, blah.

So it's really remarkable that these actually made it to Poland then, just probably through Germany or something, I don't know, whatever. It'll figure itself out. And, obviously, these were influenced by Chinese pottery, which is why like Delft tiles as a whole, were influenced by Chinese pottery because it's the white background with the blue on top of it, just kind of like Oh, I'm forgetting the other person.

Okay, forget I'm bringing this up. Never mind, let's just nix that. So, excuse me.

So, do, do, do, do, do, I lost my place. That's not good. So, the spokesperson also stated that these were the original tiles that decorated the baths, so I'm assuming that they mean originally as according to Lubomirski, who's the one who like, created the palace and everything, versus August, who came afterward, but I don't know, because they said that he actually made it August made it what it was today, and, like, why it's so prolific and remarkable and well-known, but I don't know.

That also was a little bit of a mystery for me to solve that I did not solve, so apologies. And, like I said, the palace is super noticeable because it survived the fire of fires of World War II, which is amazing. In recent years, which I thought was really interesting, various other items have been returned to the museum, including a sculpture of Diana by Jean-Antoine Houdon, as well as an applique candelabra with the head of Medusa from the Solomon Hall in the palace, which is really cool.

So, I don't know, that always just, like, fills my heart when people are just, "Oh yeah, we could just give this back to this museum." And it's really difficult to figure out, especially if you don't know the provenance of the piece, it's, like, "Ugh, I don't know where this is supposed to go." So, that's why you work with experts.

Anywho, you can actually So, like I said, nobody knows where these tiles came from, but the ministry allegedly is working on this to figure it out, so we might have an update in the future. And you can actually visit these tiles. They're on display right now until September 1st.

They're in an exhibit called "The Art of Thinking Well: The Legacy of Stanisław Herakliusz Lubomirski." Apologies, again, Polish is not my strong suit, clearly. So, yeah, if you want to, you can go visit them. On to our third and final story.

So, this is Episode 52. All the way back in Episode 32, this is Episode 58. Welcome to Episode 58.

I'm in Episode 52 and back in Episode 32, Where am I? We were talking about the possible real-life location of the background of the Mona Lisa. Now, this has been something that has been studied by art historians for fucking ever.

Like, I don't know when it actually started, that would actually be something really I'm curious to know now, so if you know, let me know. No, no, no, no. But a lot of previous Sorry, I just saw my boyfriend's taking a photo of me, so it distracted me for a second.

A lot of previous theories have been posited, though, by scholars throughout history, I think, primarily, within the last couple decades, it's been super juicy and been studied, I guess. Like I said, trying to not do cut, so fill in the space. Probably to my detriment.

Anyway, some of the previous theories that have been suggested is that So, okay. Most researchers are using the bridge that's in the background of the Mona Lisa to try to figure out where this is, because it's a specific number of arches, it's a specific style, blah, blah, blah. Some of the researchers that have suggested, rather, some suggestions are that the bridge is either the Ponte Buriano in the northern city of Piacenza, or the Ponte Buriano, which is located in the Tuscan province of Arezzo.

The latest theory that we talked about in Episode 32, I just keep bringing up Episode 32, I just fucking love it. So, the latest theory that we talked about was that the bridge was the Romito di Laterina, an Etruscan Roman structure in Arezzo. Well, now we have another possible place.

This one I'm actually very intrigued by, because it seems, so, because of the person's credentials, I guess, I'm just going to keep it at that. So, the person who is the latest theorist, theoretician, theorist, her name is Ann Pizzorusso. Pizzorusso.

Trying to do this all in one go is way more difficult than it seems, trust me. Oh, boy. Okay, Ann Pizzorusso, who is super uniquely qualified, like I mentioned, for this, she is an Italian Renaissance specialist and a geologist, which is very fascinating, because most other people, I believe, have been art historians or historians.

So, she brings a very unique look at this, because she's going the scientific route, which I think da Vinci would be very pleased by. So, she believes that the location that is the background of the Mona Lisa is Lecco in Northern Italy, right by, it's, like, a small town off Lake Como, so Lake Como does this and it's, like, or I guess in a mirror, it's, like, right there.

So, Lecco looks fucking adorable. Lecco, Lecco, I think Lecco, I don't know, we'll find out, yeah, succo d'arancia Lecco. Okay, got it.

I'm trying to see what double C's, anyway. But the town looks gorgeous and adorable, a gorgedable, that's an ugly word, let's not use that, but the town looks so fucking cute and it has mountains and everything. Okay, anyway, so, why did she come to this conclusion?

So, she stated that, quote, "When I came to Lecco, I realized he had painted the Mona Lisa here," end quote, pretty on the nose. Most scholars, like I said, have relied upon the bridge in the background, that's, like, super itty-bitty tiny over her shoulder, and, she also looked at the bridge in conjunction with the geology of the terrain and blah, blah, blah, all that fun sciencey shit that I- I actually do enjoy, I just don't have the vocabulary for it.

So, she thinks that the bridge behind the Mona Lisa, the seated figure, is 14th century the 14th-century Ponte Azzone Visconti, but she also, like I said, relied upon geology. She states, quote, "The bridge to me was not the important aspect of painting- of the painting. In the other hypotheses, the geology was just incorrect," end quote.

So, she looked at the rock formations behind the seated figure and she noted that they were limestone, which is in Lecco. So then, using the bridge, the 14th-century bridge, and then the limestone, she actually thinks she found the location, and then looking at the mountainous kind of background and the terrain and the trees and shit, like, I think she might be onto something.

I don't know, though. I like giving everybody the benefit of the doubt until somebody else comes along and persuades me, and then we see. So she also said, though, quote, "When you look at the Mona Lisa, you see this part of the Adda River and you see another lake behind it, which are perfectly shown underneath these sawtooth mountains," end quote.

So, she really married art and science together, which, like I said, I think da Vinci would be very proud. Also, I do always have to speculate and wonder, is this just an imaginary landscape where da Vinci took bits and pieces from various different places and that's why you can't actually place it? I like the idea of it being a mystery, but I always have the, like, it could just be made up, like, people do shit like that all the time, or, like, like I said, taking bits and pieces, so, like, Dalí, his cliffs were from his childhood in Spain, blah, blah, blah.

What if it is just a- an amalgamation of stuff? I have no idea. I am 100% not a da Vinci scholar and I like to be optimistic that there is actually a location just because I find that fun.

So, anyway, like I said, other theories pointed to bridges in Arezzo and Piacenza, but I do wonder if we will ever know that location for certain. So, that is it for this episode of Bye Amara. It was chaotic and beautiful and we'll see how this actually turns out.

So, also, I am going to be trying to make this again a weekly podcast, so bear with me, I'm so sorry. I have had so much going on, you have no idea. All good stuff, but just literally we have not been home for the past 3 or 4 months, so I'm going to try to make it work.

Probably some episodes on the road with sub-par audio, but hey, consistency, I need to be there for you guys, so if anybody's even left, so I'm so sorry. And I think that's it. Okay.

I will say goodbye now. Goodbye. No.

I'm Amara Andrew, never stop creating. That was chaotic as fuck.