Transcript
Derek Sivers Philosophy of Hell Yeah or No
00:00:00 Jeff Sarris
You need present focus to enjoy life, but too much present focus can… Something…
…prevent the deeper happiness of achievement. So they were, today they were talking about shallow happy versus deep happy.
Welcome back to Useful Not Famous. This is the show where we dive into topics we find interesting and strive to be the most useful, and maybe tongue-tied, people you know.
And try to say something that's written down that I didn't memorize, so.
If you see something, say something.
See something, say something. Say something, see something.
Yeah, it works either way.
I don't know, who am I? That's what we're discovering today.
I'm Amara Andrew and this is…
Farmers, bump-adum-bump-bump-bump-bump.
I, I kind of felt it, because whatever you said right before that felt like, a little theme song to Farmers.
Damn right! Not a sponsor.
If you want to sponsor the show, yeah!
Unless you want to be. So, what was… So, deep happy versus short happy?
Shallow happy versus deep happy.
Yeah, let me just reiterate it one more time. So, basically, that being present focused, that's being in love, making art, it pushes you towards a present focus of right now. But then, ambition is what pushes us toward future focus.
And just, just so you know, this comes from Hell Yeah or No by Derek Sivers.
Yeah, it's really good. Derek Sivers is such a great thinker, like it's…
Well, and I love the concept of that, if something, just like literally one sentence…
Yeah, like if something you're doing isn't a hell yeah, then it's a no. And it's like that is such a beautiful philosophy for life. If there isn't something where you're like, "Hell yeah, I want to do that!" or "Hell yeah, I want to go!", don't do it.
It's so simple. And I know that there's nuance and context, but literally, just if you don't feel like it, don't do it.
I don't even think there's nuance or context. I, I really think that's it. Like, th- there's a whole book where he dives into things like that, but, yeah, really it's, it's straightforward, and I think the simplicity is what makes it valuable.
Yeah, I agree. Like, I think, and I only meant nuance or context if it's like, — I'm smiling if you're watching this, but I don't mean it like as a happy thing– but like if somebody's in the hospital, you don't really want to go and you don't want to be there, but you want to be there for the person. So then, I guess it's a hell yeah, but like you're also like, "No." I don't know, so that's just all I mean.
Yeah, that's a tough, that's a…
I went down a dark path. We should stick to the, the happies.
Well, so what is it? It is, the 9th, 9th of January when we're recording this. Well, this comes out in a few days, but…
The 9th. Is that like the State of Happiness, next to Kentucky?
But we just passed New Year's Eve. So, say you were invited to a New Year's Eve party…
…you just decide, "Is this a hell yeah?"
And if that party is not a hell yeah…
That sort of, the simplicity of that, there's something magical to that. Obviously, we each have our own version of "Hell yeah!" too, which is even more helpful. And it comes into play with business a lot.
Oh, yeah. Well, like even how we used to go to conferences all the time for our business, one of my business, one of your businesses. One of our businesses together, MAVEN.
WhatisMaven.com. But we would go to a lot of different conferences, mostly just to see friends and hang out, but like, when you're at the conferences, it's just like so many different options, events and dinners and things you can go to. But a lot of them weren't hell yeahs, and that's not against anybody, it's just, it's 75 people at one table, and it's like, "Ehh, okay, like I don't really want to do that." So, we learned if it, not even learned, but just decided, if it wasn't like a, "Oh, hell yeah, like that sounds perfect!", it's like, "Yeah, we're just gonna go do our own thing." So much happier, so much better.
Well, and we're not going to conferences right now.
I know, so it's even more of a hell yeah.
Yeah, hell yeah or no. It was a hell yeah before, and we've talked about this on the show, but if, if you're new here, if you haven't listened to that episode, which you probably haven't, 'cause this is a small show, Useful Not Famous. Not very many people, listen, and that's on purpose.
But…
And it's on our other page as well.
Yeah, because we've moved this around a bunch.
But why did we go to conferences before? We went to conferences before because what we do for people with MAVEN, marketing, is we're always there for them. So then what happens when we're focused on the real estate industry?
Realtors go to a lot of conferences when they're in that ecosystem of the conference sort of circuit. So what do we do? We are always there for them.
That's the thing, is we're always present physically and metaphorically when we work with them. So that was a big part of the "why" for going. We made a lot of friendships, but then some of those friendships, long-term, turn into something more.
So it's dual-purpose.
Turns into so much more! So, anyway, speaking of short-term and long-term…
Present Focus Versus Future Ambition
…so shallow, shallow what? Shallow what? Shallow-een?
What was it? Shallow who? Shallow…
Shallow happy or deep happy. Okay, so then is that sort of, is like the corollary for each of those: short happy equals short-term, long happy equals long-term? Is that kind of the thinking?
Yeah, but I think looking at it as present-focused and future-focused.
Okay, so short happy is right now. Like, if I was drinking a cup of coffee right now, that brings me happiness right now. So that is a short happy.
– but that's not ambitious. Drinking a cup of coffee, there's no ambition attached to it.
Correct. And then long happy is…
We talked about this a little bit earlier as short and long, but the, sort of shallow/deep I think is, I think it's a better way to phrase it.
I think I need like a diagram, 'cause I'm such a visual person. Okay, so then long happy, somebody on, if…
If somebody's listening to this, they're like, "Get it together, lady!" Okay, so then long happy…
…is more ambitious, longer term?
Heheh! It's, honestly, the terminology does not matter. But, yes, long happy, deep happy, same thing.
Deep happy, long-term…
…ambition.
That'll make it easy. So, deep happy, shallow happy.
Okay, perfect. Yeah, deep work is what you do to work on bigger, more ambitious projects.
So, it's like having deep happy.
I feel like that's like a weird, Snow White dwarf.
You keep him in the closet.
Deppapi! Hey, it's fucking Deppapi! Okay…
I'm gonna get cancelled. Nobody even knows that this show exists, and I'm gonna get cancelled.
Differentiating Objectives and Ambition With Stepping Stones
Hey, that's marketing. That's perfect. Give me all the attention.
Okay, got it. So, shallow happy, deep happy. Got it.
So, then, we talk about objectives a lot on this show, and specifically, specifically… I need to tell you a secret.
I am on one today. So, we talk about objectives, and specifically not having objectives, because that leads to just better outcomes overall. 'Cause also, you can't be disappointed…
…if you don't have objectives. But then also…
I just, I want to touch on that though, because that isn't the why. That's one of the ancillary things.
No, I know. That's what I'm going… That's what I'm going through.
Hear me out. I'm gonna let you finish.
But that… Fuck, I forgot what it was.. But, yeah, anyway, just not having objectives, because then you're actually stunting your progress toward what could actually be a better outcome, basically.
LOL, TL;DR, TGIF.
Well, I just wanted to say it's not that you can't be disappointed, that isn't the why to not have objectives. But, yeah, because the only way that you ever get to a new destination is by carving a new path.
So if you want to get to a new destination and your objective is a very specific destination, you're not going to find the new path to get there.
Yeah, you're not open and receptive to other things. So then, is having, well, I guess, then my question, it's a moot point. Moot point.
No, but what were you going to say?
Well, so I was going to say, long-term, having the idea for the future that you're working toward, I felt like there was some sort of a disconnect between not having objectives, because if you have more of a longer-term thing that you're sort of working toward, or working for, isn't that just having an objective?
Well, I'm not gonna tell you! Beep! End of the show!
But I think objectives and ambition, I think having those words side-by-side is very helpful, because…
Yeah, those are two different things.
Yeah, except they're like the same concept. So long, ambition is a long-term thing. I'm ambitious.
I want to build a successful business. I want to be the best basketball player in the NBA, like…
Which I know you're going for right now.
Oh, yeah, right, I'm starting right now. Yeah.
Like, that's ambition. Like I want to, I want to be the best, it'd be more, I want to be the best basketball player I can be. That's ambition, more than I want to be this person, 'cause that's more of an objective.
So, like a Michael Jordan type, that's why I say it, because, again, the book Relentless by Tim Grover, phenomenal. But he was and is just a very, extremely ambitious. He's relentless.
He's never going to give up.
But it wasn't a direct, specific th- I mean, you can say it, like winning an NBA championship. Like that could, that's an objective. But that's also an objective that the path to get there is inherently winding.
You're going through, what, 82 games a season, with an entire team of players and coach, and like you're doing everything you can to get there, and what you're doing to get there changes all the time. So, that's like a, it's almost like a broad objective, being ambition, I think. Where like a narrow objective, like saying, "I'm going to make $33,000 more this year." I'm just trying to pick a select, whatever, random.
Did you look at my goals sheet?
Huh, see that's so hard now, 'cause now I'm like, that is sort of…
The obj- It's so hard because objectives…
I wonder if we even need to figure out more so… Like I feel like I agree overall with the objective thing, but I do also struggle with it a little bit personally, 'cause I Okay, so you can wander. Like, I think that's very important, and wandering means you don't have a stalwart, like "This is exactly where I'm going, and this is what I'm doing."
Yeah, these are the steps.
It's like you're exploring.
Like I believe in not having that, but I believe in having the, the, the exploratory nature of things. However, I don't feel like you can't not have sort of an objective or a goal, rather. I guess not objective, but I have goals with certain things.
If I didn't have those goals, I feel like I'd just be fucking around, and I wouldn't have any sort of clear purpose for me. So, I think that's with the ambition… I don't know.
It's very, it's, I don't even think those two things work together, because I think you need to be ambitious to achieve anything ever, like at all.
Yes.
But I think ambitious people have some goals or objectives, but I think it's, I think, okay, here it is. I talked through it. Verbal processing right now.
If you're so like, "It's this objective or nothing. Fuck it, I don't want anything else." That's the problem for me. Where if you're going for this objective, but then all of a sudden some other crazy, amazing opportunity happens because you learned how to do origami or whatever, and it's like Japan was like, "You should come here and be the head of origami" or whatever…
Hi, Amara, this is Japan calling.
Would you be the head of origami?
I thought you would never ask! Not gonna lie, my origami skills, pretty good now. Anyways…
Depends if you need to do one, but, okay.
It's been something I've been enjoying. I do it secretly. You don't see it.
I have a whole pile of origami over there.
In the bathroom? What are you doing? When are you doing this?
Like I shower? I call it showergami.
I have a secret origami addiction.
Every time you're in the office, I'm just…
You're like, "What's that sound, Joey? Paper fluttering?"
And then you're just like, "Crane."
And you're like, "Actually, I had…" And I'm like, "Nothing! Drugs, I don't know!"
So ambition gets us to achievement. I think, I think what we have here is objectives being a long, far-off thing. Like a one-step away objective is perfect.
Like our objective right now is to record this episode and publish it on Monday.
And become the head of origami in Japan.
Well, that's your far-off objective.
Heh, he looked away for a second.
But I think that's the thing. So ambition is achievement. We want to achieve the next step.
But we don't know what two steps away necessarily is. We can have an idea, but we're not having the objective of "I am going to…" for example, "I am going to start our hyper-local platform, because then the next step is this. The next step is wide open, which we've proven with our own hyper-local platform."
It's you take that one step toward it, and then your landscape opens up again. So now the objective can be, "I'm going to take this step and see where it gets me." But if it's "We have unlimited steps in front of us, and I'm going to somehow pick the right one that'll get me to that one way in the distance." That's the objective that we're against.
Yeah, I forgot. It's the whole stepping stone thing. So, it's like you're on one stone, and then what are the stones immediately around you, not what's the stone all the way through the middle of the ocean into the corridor.
So, yeah, the ambition, so ambition is long-term in that we're constantly striving and constantly achieving, so like stepping stones. Where the, so that's the deep happy of achievement, because achievement is never instant.
But then the instant, we still need, otherwise we're only living in the future, we're not living in the present.
Right. Do you struggle with, which I already know the answer, so I'm asking, I'm leading the witness, which do you struggle with more? In the moment or long-term?
What does "struggle" mean?
What do you think it means?
Don't you love that when somebody like clearly doesn't even know what the fuck they're talking about, then they're just like, "Well, what do you think it means? What does it mean to you?" Have you heard that in interviews? No?
Okay.
Yeah, but I'm letting you talk yourself through this.
Also, side note, on TikTok, there's like not even a trend, but there's just something where you talk about being ambitious, but you're not ambitious, you're ambit-chous, and that's all I keep thinking about. Anyway, moving on. Do you struggle more with being in the moment, like specifically with what we're talking about, like, I guess, having…
Do you struggle more with being content with shallow happy versus deep happy?
Why are you asking, I guess? 'Cause I think I could actually answer it, depending on what you're looking, what type of answer you're looking for, because I think I can take this in completely different directions.
So, I'm thinking like business-wise specifically.
But narrow down even more.
I don't know, you tell me. Give me all your answers.
I don't… Phrase it one more time. I want to hear how you say it.
So, do you struggle more with…
Like…
I guess, which do you find more rewarding? Short happy? Small happy?
Short happy? Or deep happy?
Shallow happy, shallow or deep.
Shallow happy or deep happy?
No, I just, I just see that you're just like, "Save me."
Do you struggle? Yea or nay?
Like, honestly, I don't think I do.
Like, that's the tough part. Like, 'cause I don't want it to sound, like I'm just confident in what I'm doing. Like, I'm very confident in what I do.
I think the shallow happy/deep happy for me, and that's why I was asking the question, I think each thing that I do and achieve is a shallow happy achievement that gets me, that's what I find exciting. But then they compound over the long-term for a grand achievement. So, like, I don't think I struggle with either of them.
But if you mean do you struggle with achievement versus play?
So, like, play, like I want to play more. I want to like, and play for me is very different than anyone, but like, run, kick, jump, like play, like childlike play in the moment presence, that I want to do more of, and I struggle with, because I need to like carve that out. Where the being present, like mentally present, and doing things to have new achievements, I don't struggle with that at all.
It's only the other side of it that would be more the whimsical in the moment play type stuff.
Yeah, you're a very unique being in that…
It said it on your 23andMe. Like 85% unicorn.
Could you imagine? That'd be so fucking sweet. But then I'd be like, "Wait, I'm a horse?" Anyway, I'd be so confused.
An origami master of Japan is a horse.
I know! That was such a funny joke.
Sorry, I've been like off the rails the past two episodes. You can tell I had a little bit of time off where I'm just like giggly and stupid.
Yeah, don't be giggly. Ew!
Delayed Gratification and In the Moment Satisfaction
Not time off, but we've, we have everything dialed really well. We should talk about that in a minute, but first.
Yeah. Well, yeah, not even time off, just time to think, which has been really amazing. Anyway, what the hell did you just say?
Unicorn. You're Oh, that's why. You're a unicorn, because you have a very rare ability, 'cause when I asked the question, I was like, "Well, no, I already know the answer." Because you, I just wanted to hear what you said first, from the horse's mouth.
Heh!
Short term, you, you are literally in the moment all the time, and it's weird. Like, I don't understand it, because I'm, I'm here, but I'm 100 miles that way, which I think is just a taming of the brain, honestly. I'm never like in the moment.
Even if we're talking, I'm thinking of 85 other things that I need or want to do. I don't know if that's a character flaw, genetics, hereditary, piecemeal, Gingobre, whatever it is.
Heh! Just let new process through this.
So, I don't know if that's just me, if that's being a woman, if that's being in a black shirt, like I don't know what that is. But then, what's even weirder, you're so good at holding off long-term. Like, you would literally…
Delayed gratification is what people normally call that.
Ugh! That sounds horrible! I'm so, like, see, I wouldn't think I'm in the moment, but I like the immediacy, 'cause you get that dopamine immediately of certain things, which is very much an addictive personality.
But just having that like in the moment, I like celebrating life in the moment, because you never know what you're going to have tomorrow, 10 years from now. Like, you don't know what's going to happen, so why not just celebrate right now? Let's just make every day a party, which is not good, 'cause that can lead to very destructive behavior, like not me, but I mean…
I don't want to say not, I don't want to say it's bad for that, it's just different. Different than how I approach life.
But people like that typically have like substance problems and things like that, because you're…
But from my vantage point, a lot of people, they do. So, but I don't, like thinking long term, it's like, am I even going to be around that long? Like, who knows?
Like, not to be morbid or like depressing, but just why not just do it now? Like, let's just go now, let me go buy a Ferrari right now. Not actually, but I don't know.
I do struggle with the long-term of things, but also, I think that has to do with like upbringing and a myriad of other things we can unpack.
I was like, it's just how funny if we just cut to a cut-scene of us buying a Ferrari. Like, "No, not really!" 'Cause you said, "No, not really." I'm like, "Yeah, not really."
I literally, I had a thought that I was like, "We could just go on Turo right now and like rent a Ferrari and just throw that in here." Like, how funny would that be? It's just like, "Bloop, bloop!"
Well, I like your also, "When we…" Oh, it is. That's the only sound. Like, well, okay, so you have two choices: "Bloop, bloop!" or "Awooga!" Those are the only two horn sounds on a Ferrari.
A Lambo is "Awooga!"?
Don't be ridiculous. Come on!
Okay, I guess you have more experience on the Lambo side, I have more experience clearly on the Ferrari side.
Duh. Actually…
No, I actually, I have experience with Ferrari side.
I know, and I've driven a Lambo.
-huh, like it's so funny…
I've driven a Ferrari. It was my cousin's.
Oh, yeah, yours was family, mine was a friend who worked at a exotic car dealer.
Who, I don't think was supposed to really let me drive it when we were like 20, but…
That's fun. That was when I first learned, I think I was like 12, and I learned that you actually get driving shoes with your car.
Yeah, like it comes with it.
Yeah, because that is, like Enzo Ferrari is a race car…
…visionary. Like, he sort of created the racing scene like it became.
It was so nice! Like, this is a huge tangent, but like in the back, you could see the motor, like it was just covered in like, I don't think it was glass, but it was just covered in like…
You could see the entire inner workings in the back. So fucking cool! I wish I remembered what model it was.
I actually have a photo of it, 'cause I was just like obsessed with it.
I feel like it's like a Testarossa. I don't know why, that's just how I…
…see it. Like in the '80s, the Ferrari Testarossa was the whole thing. It's like red, it has sort of these indentations along the side that are black, and then you see the exposed engine.
Okay.
So, it wasn't that. It was like a dark like purplish-black kind of color. But I remember being in it and it was like, "Woah!" And I was like 10 or something, like it was quite an experience.
And I was like, "I want one of these!" If you just work as hard as Cousin, Cousin Whatever…
I know, I was like, "I don't want to say his name."
Yeah, anyway, blah, blah, blah. Where the hell did we get…
Expose his name, that sounds like a…
It sounds like some whore, "I don't want to say his name."
…I don't want to say Beetlejuice.
He's gonna find who he is. Anyway, where the hell were we going with that?
Well, just deep happy, shallow happy.
Yeah, I feel like a Ferrari would make me deep happy.
See, that's the, again, so this is back to it, though. Like, we've talked about the, you've brought this up, I think on the show even. We just have two different versions of this.
You're looking forward to a trip or an event or going out to dinner. Yeah.
Oh, yeah, I talked about this last week.
The looking forward to it is a huge part of your satisfaction. So if right now it was like, right this second, let's do whatever, it's not as satisfying to you as if it was Monday, and today's Friday, and on Monday we're like, "Friday we're going to do it at 3:15" or whatever, like…
Unplanned Fame and Stone Cold Steve Austin
3:16, John 3:16.
Actually 2:14, but whatever.
It's John, well, I mean Austin 3:16.
'Cause I just whipped your ass. That was the…
I couldn't remember what it was! I was like, I know 3:16, but I don't remember the rest of it.
Stone Cold Steve Austin in the WWF, that was like, he Also, just real quick, that was off the cuff, off the cuff at, what was it? SummerSlam or something? I think it was Summer…
No, it was…
I thought it was WrestleMania.
So, it wasn't WrestleMania, because he was like a B character, he wasn't even like anyone, and he just got on the mic and said, " you got your John 3:16," to, Jake "The Snake" Roberts was like a, religious guy. Like, this is the only era of wrestling I know, is that one little window. But then Stone Cold, before he was really Stone Cold, grabbed the mic and said, "You have your John 3:16, well, Austin 3:16 says I just whipped your ass!" And that became one, one second, like, he didn't have that, it was a, didn't they call it a shoot when you're just, they give you the mic and you talk, you, you just get in character and talk.
He didn't have it scripted, he didn't have a plan, he said it, the next day people had signs and t-shirts that said Austin 3:16, and that sort of made him one of the most successful wrestlers of all time.
And it was a second. Like John Cena, he was just interviewed, and they were asked like, "How do you have the…" Like, we've seen this, but I never watched wrestling when he was wrestling, this was like when I was in high school, I watched wrestling. But his thing was like, "You can't see me." And like he was asked, "How did you come up with that?
That's so random." And he sort of tells the story, and he's like, "Well, you know, I'm a, Platinum…"
And, which is also just funny, because he just rapped one day, and in the bus with the WWF at the time, now it's WWE, they were just like, "Do you want to like do that?" 'Cause he was so good at just naturally rapping, so he did, he recorded an album and it was Platinum. But he would run the songs by his, brother or cousin or someone, and while he was running the songs, while he was like sort of like performing a song for his, his sounding board person, he's like dancing like this with his hand in front of his face, and John Cena just says to him, "Man, you just are like so in it!
Like, when you're, like look at you doing this!" And then he's just like, "You'd never do that on TV." And John Cena's like…
"Sure, I'll try it." And like the next event that he did was on TV, and he like whatever, does his finisher move, no one knew who he was, he was a nobody, he like does his finishing move, does this thing, and he's like, "There's a little pop from the crowd." Like, "That was interesting. Like, why? I'll try it again tomorrow." He does it again, there's another pop from the crowd, so he's like, "Okay." It was like Monday Night RAW or whatever the TV show was, he's on next, he does it, another pop, and that becomes his thing, like, "You can't see me." Like no one was watching anyway, he's like, "So why wouldn't I try it?" And then he goes back to his cousin or brother or whatever, and like he was shocked that he did it, and then it worked, and that's forever his gimmick.
Hyper Local Marketing Versus Social Media Virality
I feel like that's what people are searching for with like viral moments on social media. Like, everybody's looking for that viral thing, but also I find what I find interesting, neither of them were focused on, "Oh, well, what happens if it doesn't go viral?" or "What happens if it doesn't this?"
It wasn't the objective to do this, or to say "Austin 3:16" and have that be my thing forever.
Yeah, and like so many people now are trying to go viral on social media. For what purpose? I still don't understand, but neither here nor there, but…
I mean, that is sort of the name of the podcast, but go on.
Well, yeah! Heh! No, I know.
I'm, I'm trying to give grace, but I think it's the dumbest thing, to be fully honest, 'cause it's like, "Okay, well, what are you gonna do with that 2 million views?" Go on, like, do you have everything, all your systems in place to capture all those people? No. So, what the hell do you care?
Anyway, I could go on a whole tangent. That would actually be an interesting separate episode. But…
Oh, but that's the thing, and we've built everything we've built for now like decades for me, and then getting closer to a decade for you now, all on not being famous.
And like, we know way too many people who've had fame and can never monetize it, ever, and have never gotten out of a day job because they focused on the wrong part.
But, sorry, what I was saying before, trying to go viral, you are so scared to try anything, because you're so like, "Well, no, every single piece of content needs to be perfect." And like, whether you want to hear it or not, nobody's going to see it and nobody cares. Even if it's the best piece of content, nobody's going to see it, nobody's going to care for a long time.
Eventually people will start to pay attention, but even still, nobody's really going to care. Like, if you are a service provider and you're trying to make content, you just need to try a bunch of different things. Like, we have a very specific formula that works for a very specific goal, AKA to get awareness to possibly lead to clients, that's your end.
Like, you handle that, heh! All that to say, if you want to have a viral moment, just try all these different things. Like, you never know what could be the thing.
Like, the guy on TikTok that I showed you, he's, he was like He had his like, I'm trying to even think of how the fuck to explain this without sounding like a lunatic, but he had like his hood over his face, and he's like rocking back and forth, and he's like trying to see how long he can rhyme, freestyle. But he's speaking like he's like a Macbeth character, like one of the witches or something.
And he's like, "Have you ever seen a duck riding in a pond? Have you ever been known to be Long John?" And like, you just keep going. But anyway, just a random guy did that 400 times before, and then finally just one of the videos clicked, and then it was like he just became an overnight sensation, and then was gone.
So, anyway, don't go for virality, kids. That's message here.
Well, yeah, like in service of what, is always the question. And viral inherently, if you're going for hyper-local, like, your town or your region has…
…thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or maybe millions of people, but not billions. You're not try- if, like, your market is not the world.
So, like, if you're reaching people all over the world, all over the country, and you're going for hyper-local, you're doing it completely wrong, because as soon as you do that, you're never going to get people local ever again, and all we do is, for our clients, our top bananas, all we do is make it so they get in front of the right people at the right time.
That's it. You don't want more, you don't want different than that, because as soon as you go different from that, how are you going to rein that in? Like, even if the virality works and sustains, you don't have your actual customers coming in, but more than likely it won't sustain, and then you have this just sporadic group that's very tiny, not very many people, but they're all over the country or world, and either way it's a problem.
Well, yeah, and they don't feel that connection with you. So, like, doing hyper-local content, if you literally become like the digital mayor of your area, people feel a connection with you immediately, because it's like, "Okay, this person cares about their community, they're keeping tabs on all the things, and they're sharing it with me, where maybe I'm not as brushed up on things and I want to be, but I don't have the time to read all the news articles or keep up with all the Facebook groups or whatever it is."
And you said "their" community, "my" community.
Like, that person is talking about where I live, nobody talks about where I live, like that's so powerful.
-. Well, yeah, it's like, "Oh, my god, somebody I know that street." But when you see it in a video format, it feels so different. Like, it's almost like when, if you have like a friend and they end up being on TV or being in movies or something like that, or popping off on TikTok, like whatever it is, and then you see them in person, you look at them a little differently.
It doesn't mean that you treat them differently, and maybe you don't, and that's fine, but to be fully honest, all of us, there's just a different look where you look at the person and you're like, "Oh!" Like, again, maybe you treat them differently, maybe you don't, but there is just a different overall vibe, and that's what happens with people in your town.
Maybe, I don't know, the person that gives you coffee or whatever, they see you and then they're just like, "Oh! Hi! Like, I know you!
I saw you on TV!" Meaning the TV in your pocket.
-huh, yeah, like we have a client who is, like, she loves ice cream. Ends up ice cream comes up in her hyper-local stuff, and she was at an ice cream shop almost an hour away from where she lives, but her market, obviously, is big, but she goes up to the, to the counter, and the young girl behind the counter, like maybe like 18, 19 years old, looks at her, and, and she's like close to retirement age, so this is polar opposites of the age range, and looks at her and says, "Are you so-and-so?" And then, then she's just like, "Oh, yeah." And she's like, "I follow you on TikTok.
I love your videos." And it's one of those things that's like you someone could, misunderstand that and say, "Oh, that person isn't in the market for X," so say it's real estate, "They're not in the market to buy or sell. They're 18, 19 years old." But who's in the market to buy or sell in five, six years? 18, 19-year-olds, like they are the main market, like there's a You're, you're getting, you're capturing people early with your brand and recognition, and then they trust you forever.
And if her parents are looking for, like, a realtor, and then she's like, "I actually follow a realtor on TikTok. I know it sounds weird, but hear me out." Like, I mean, there's just so much opportunity for that, so, yeah.
This is why brand matters more than anything, 'cause if it's one viral video, and then it's just like, "Oh, didn't you do that one thing? Aren't you the person who jumps off of trampolines into pools?" And it's like, "Oh, yeah, that's me." But see, there's no connection. You're just like, "You're a gimmick."
Building Sustainable Brands Beyond One Hit Virality
It was like Dogface 420, during COVID, where, oh, we saw him at VaynerCon, but he was the guy who was drinking cranberry juice on the skateboard with the Fleetwood Mac song playing in the background.
Yeah, what can you turn that into?
Which you can do brand deals and things, but then you're constantly, you're chasing that high of keeping that virality, which is maddening, because it just, it will never…
No, it won't happen. Like, that is completely impossible, and then you also need to keep working with brands to keep you relevant. It's a totally different job and business, and you have to be very, like that almost has to be your objective, is to go into that brand or that business like, or not brand, go into that business just like that, 'cause it's a very specific type of skill set that you need to have.
Well, and it's "I make viral moments." If that's what you do, that's one thing. But, like, that guy specifically, he was useful to one brand: Ocean Spray cranberry juice. And he got paid by Ocean Spray cranberry juice some sum of money…
…once, twice, maybe three, like years ago. They are not like, "Hey, you're still our guy. Like, let's, let's make…" I mean, not a great reference, but "Let me make you make you our Jared from Subway." You know, like a thing where we use your likeness for a decade or 15 years.
It's, no, you had your viral moment, we're going to jump on your trend here, make a few bucks, give you even fewer back, and then we're good. Thank you. Like, you did that for us, free marketing, and we gave you a little bit because of something we asked you to do on the coat tails of that.
But you're never turning that into a thing.
And if you can, that's amazing. Like, if you turn that into a brand and, like, build that and figure out, like, Hawk Tuah. I mean, she got the closest.
She had everything lined up, like having Whitney Cummings ready to, like, or no, she made a podcast for her.
And, and Whitney Cummings is a very successful comedian, writer, director, producer, actor, like she does a lot.
She's brilliant. Like, she is, I love her. She has a very no-bullshit sensibility.
So, if you don't like aggressive, strong women, or not even aggressive, if you don't like strong women, probably not for you.
She was, we were born on the same day, exactly same day, same year.
Yeah, you're twinsies, birthday girls.
Anyways, but she was the one that got closest, and even she didn't turn it into anything, and I think now she has an OnlyFans, which fine, whatever, do whatever you want, but it's not understanding the business of it and not capitalizing on that, and then turning it into something, which is very difficult. Like, I'm not saying it's not, 'cause trying to make that parlay and that, to bridge that gap is very difficult.
So I would say it's nearly impossible. So not even that she didn't understand it, but it doesn't matter what resources you have behind it, no one really cares who you are when you're the person who had this two-and-a-half-second viral comment that, like, the video went viral because of words that you said.
So, someone, well, no, okay, this isn't even a viral moment. I was going to say someone who has bridged that gap really well is a person on TikTok named Alex Earle. She…
Which off mic I need to tell you about a little thing that might be an issue right now.
Yeah, I already know. I'm all in on my… I know every…
I know too much. But I love her storytelling style. I've followed her since COVID, basically.
Like, while she was still at college, when her videos kind of sucked, there was just something where I was like, "She's actually really interesting to watch." And it was just the way that she talks about things. Like, it feels like you're like besties together. Now she's done Super Bowl commercials, she's been on Dancing with the Stars, she was, I think ambassador or maybe related like in the business realm with Poppi, the prebiotic soda thing.
Like, she's done all these amazing things.
Heh! No. But granted, she comes from like a very well-connected family, so she has had certain legs up that maybe other people wouldn't.
Ooh, choice of words! But real quick, it wasn't a viral moment. It was…
That's what I was just going to say, 'cause like she had a couple videos that went viral, but it wasn't that same like gimmicky like Hawk Tuah, like that kind of thing. That's, it's two very different… Like, Alex Earle, she built a brand, she is building a brand.
Consistently over the long-term.
Yeah, like she's been making basically the same exact type of video for 5, 6, 7 years maybe now, and it's doing your makeup, it's a Get Ready With Me, where she does her makeup and then she does storytelling, and it's either one long story, spilling the tea on different things, or just filling you in on her life.
And then cleaning up the tea off the floor that she spilled.
She's like, "Just leave it there."
But she has a doggy, and the doggy can clean it up. No. But then, then she also does, like, Get Ready With Me, so like, picking outfits and things like that.
But it's just, it's such an interesting… I guess those are two very different things, where Alex has this brand, and I want to be part of this brand, even though…
From the beginning, before it was even really figured out yet.
Yeah, like, even though she's kind of the opposite of somebody that I would typically follow, like on paper, but I do love those videos. There's just something about it that I find endlessly fascinating. Also, she lives in Miami and she went to University of Miami, so I'm like, "Maybe that's it." 'cause we love Miami.
But anyway, I just, she's done a really great job, and she just keeps growing and, like, has treated it like a business, which I find super respectable, even though she catches a lot of flak.
Well, and that, like, that is the example there. Like, you look at the Kardashians, too, if you were like, Kim Kardashian had a sex tape, that's why she's famous. Well, I mean, she did 800,000 things since then.
Like, that could have been a, a spark, which could or could not have been on purpose.
They know what they're doing.
'Cause you see Paris Hilton's, what happens from that, and it's like, "Oh, I could do the same." So, whatever. But that wasn't a moment that "I'm going to live on forever." It's "That is a thing to get a little more attention, like what we do for people is get them the attention when the people they need attention from."
And then, I mean, that's usually, typically the way we do it.
We lead with, "Okay, sex tape, is that what you want?"
We're like, "Okay, so this is guaranteed, a way in."
Heh! We've been doing this since the '90s, people.
You were 6 years old recording sex tapes for people. "This is, this is our thing, people."
…like, it's just so different, so different. It's, this deliberate action, consistent action over time, this ambition. Like, virality, an accidental viral hit isn't ambition, that's, that would be the shallow happiness, the shallow, near-term thing.
And then the deep happiness, the deep ambition, the deep creation of something. You can use a viral moment, or you can do it without virality. Someone like Seth Godin is one of the most prolific marketing writers of all time.
He's written so much, so many books, so many blog posts, everything, and his big thing is, "I've never been viral. I've never once went viral." Yet in the marketing sphere, you'd be hard-pressed, especially copywriting, copy marketing, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who has not heard of him. But he's been consistent and he is proficient at what he does, and he's done it since, I think he started blogging in like 1999, and that's after he already had built businesses and things in marketing.
Yeah. Well, that's how you build anything, a brand, a business, whatever, and that's, that's the type of person that you listen to and trust. So, like, if you're a small business owner or a realtor listening to this, focusing on the long-term, the, the deep happy,
I almost said shallow, I was like, "Fuck!" Focusing on that, that long-term gain of what you're building, like, we all want that quick dopamine hit, "Oh, I got 50,000 views immediately!"
With a silver bullet that'll fix it all.
Yeah, or like, "I got so many likes and so many comments and so many DMs." And then, next day, nothing. It's so easy to feel dejected from that, and feel like you're not making forward progress. But brand, what do you say?
Brand is what people think and say about you when you're not around.
But it's so hard, because brand is like this, it's an intangible gas around you.
…you can't see it, or feel it, or maybe even quantify it sometimes. But you know it exists, you know it's there, but you can't put your finger on it and be like, "I know, like, this is going to pay off in the long-term." It's like, well, if I keep working hard and I keep trying to focus on this, this, this and this, it will amount to a brand.
It just, it all takes time.
Everything takes time, and I like the thought of being like, "That person has some invisible gas around them."
And then, and then someone else is like, "Wait, do you mean his aura?"
Or it's like, "No, I actually mean invisible gas. Pretty sure Taco Bell was in that."
Hey, I'm not into that woo-woo shit, it's invisible gas or nothing.
Heh! But yeah, what people, brand is what people think and say about you when you're not around, and that's what we build, that's what we've done, that's what I've done forever. It's the only thing, it's why people come to us, sort of sight unseen.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Like, we had somebody, that I was talking to the other day, and they were, this is like now time three or four or five that they've been recognized out in public…
…and it's been like, "Oh, are you blank, the da-da-da realtor?" 'Cause we have a very specific brand for them. And, it maybe didn't click for that person, but I'm like, "That's your brand, like, that's, it's working. It's just, it's taking time," when maybe, maybe it doesn't feel like it sometimes.
Well, because it's little, incremental steps.
Exactly, it's baby steps. It's not going to be this like watershed moment where it's like the angels sing, and the trumpets sound, and you're like, "Oh, my god, this is great!" But like you said, too, you get that little hit… You heard those sweet…
Heh! But you get that hit, say, of like lots of likes or comments, whatever, but then you move the finish line. That was your finish line, it was like, "Oh, if I could only get this, this many followers, this many whatever."
The moment it happens, your finish line is moved further, and it's like, "Well, wait, all the work we did to get here can't be understated." I say "we," I'm not talking about MAVEN, like not us. Like, we, like in our own heads, like, "I just hit this new goal, this new finish line, but now when we move it way in the future and then feel bad about myself."
That's a really good point.
Like, that's the problem, is we're constantly, we're ambitious and keep pushing, but these aren't finish lines. Like, these are just growth points, these are achievements along the way. Some achievements will be really high, some achievements will be very minor, but every single one matters.
Yeah, and you can't have your, your happiness wrapped up in any of it, because if it is, then you're, you're screwed from the get-go. Like, that, you will never feel good or happy with anything that you have, and you should celebrate your tiny wins and your little successes. Obviously, don't throw like a whole party for it and be like, "Oh, my god, this is great!" Or do, if that's what you want, like whatever.
But just don't tie your happiness to all those different things, because that's a losing battle and you're going to feel bad all the time forever. Just be content, exist, and things will work out, and work hard.
And with that, we'll wrap. It's almost 50 minutes, this is a long one.
We had a lot to talk about, but we will see you next week.
