Do you want to be interesting or understood?

Publicly… Why do you laugh whenever I…? Publicly, we want to be interesting.

But privately, we want to be understood.

Welcome back to Useful Not Famous. This is the show where we explore interesting topics, or topics that at least we find interesting, and strive to be the most useful people you know. I'm Amara.

I'm Jeff Sarris.

Let's dive in.

I have a last name you don't.

No. I mean, how many Amaras do you know? Actually, there are quite a few I have learned.

Yeah, amara.me, that's how you can go right to… It is funny, you do have like an Amara, like short, just Amara domains.

Not all of them, because there's brands with the name Amara now and stuff. Yeah, I think there's a soap company now. Just like, "I was here first."

But this comes from Hitmakers. So, little paraphrased, but yeah, it's a really good book. But publicly…

So he says publicly they want to be interesting, privately they want to be understood. And this is in reference to social media versus private conversations and how social media is me, me, me where when it's a private conversation, we're we're actually talking to each other and striving to be understood instead of merely getting attention online.

And I think that's a really interesting, poignant way of saying it that publicly we want to be interesting, privately we want to be understood, because when we started talking about it, we realized how we differ on these. Not differ from what he's saying, but the thing that we want most, how it differs.

Yeah. So I was going to ask you, where…

I want to ask you first, cuz you always deflect it to me, but…

Because I'm so interesting! So why don't you elaborate a little?

Well no, I was going to ask you, where would you say, cuz I already know the answer to this, but our dear listener may not, so, we've talked about this before, and I personally enjoy group settings more because I find it easier for a conversation for my way of navigating a conversation. Now, I do like one-on-one convos, but only with people I really, really, really want to talk to.

Otherwise, I'm not really into it. You, on the other hand, are the complete opposite, aren't you?

Yes.

Okay, me!

I know!

But yeah, you are the opposite, where you don't like the group settings. You prefer one-on-one conversations or, in our case, two-on-one because it's always the two of us, but then we're basically one person. Like there are very few times where we're ever separate.

Well yeah, I thrive in the one-on-one.

Yes.

Where I'm able to talk to someone and explore what's interesting. Like that I really like. I mean, what, we've updated our intro to this podcast, it's basically that.

But like this I really like because it's like we're having a conversation.

Of course you do. Some might even say you love it.

I am that.

You love me, right?

Yes, I do. You know this, but to the topic at hand, Missy.

Missy Elliott?

Anyway.

So, like I do enjoy one-on-one conversations, but I think only when I know that the person is already interesting or I already have common ground in place to start with.

And I love the challenge.

Yeah, see, I… I like to talk to people when I already know that we have something in common for the most part. What?

I'm a preparer, I like to be prepared. Cuz social interactions are very taxing for me, so if I can be silly and goofy and do like a "yes, and" kind of approach, which I didn't even know I did that until you brought it up, and I was like, "Oh, I just find that fun." Either that or it's just so stupid, like that kind of a conversation I enjoy, but then obviously I have my limits, or somebody who does really interesting stuff, like then I want to know everything about everything that you do because like then I will go to that, but to start off, I don't really like that cuz I feel the pressure of keeping the conversation going.

And I think we just talked about this last week or the week before, too.

This is going to be such a terrible look into our psyches, this show. I think I'm going to hate it, because it feels vulnerable, and I don't like it.

No, this is perfect, because these are our real conversations, so this makes this more fun.

Like this is literally what how we talk and what we talk about.

We were talking about it like an hour ago, and then we were like, "We should just save this for the podcast." so I think just a week or two ago, an episode or two ago, we talked about how I'm always forward-looking. Sort of traditionally, I only cared about now and the future, and you cared a lot about now and the history because history informs the future, like gives context.

But what's funny is what you're saying right here also fits in that. I like the novelty of talking to someone who I don't know anything about yet. Like, okay, my podcast, my personal one, Starting Now.

I did 80-something episodes interviewing people. Almost all of them were people that I didn't know super well other than the first couple.

Yeah.

And like I never even talked to Josh from The Minimalists.

I know, which was really funny.

I didn't have him on because I know him too well. Like we have great conversations, but the show, the whole premise of the show is "How did you start?" I can recite verbatim what he will say, so that's not interesting to me. Like I lose that interest.

Like when I would do that show, I would do so much research that I would know things that people would find unexpected that I knew it, and then they would like light up and be like, "Oh wow, you prepared for this!" I'm like, "Yeah, I prepared. This is…" because then it's fun, then I can poke at things and talk about topics they haven't talked about before on other shows.

Yeah.

So like I always want the novelty.

My podcast was the complete opposite, where I would have art news stories…

And what's the name of it?

By Amara. What's the name of yours?

Starting Now, I already said mine.

Oh, well, I wasn't listening. See, one-on-one conversation!

You already knew what I was going to say, so then you could tune out.

No, I'm just teasing! I know. There's no novelty in that!

But mine was about art news stories. So, whatever happened that week in the art or history fields that was kind of weird or I just found really interesting. This conversation or this podcast now is kind of a mashup of those two.

Like I don't have news stories ready to go, but we do have topics that we find interesting or unique or whatever.

We've already talked a little bit about these things.

Yeah.

Or maybe a lot about the topics that we have on here, but we're exploring them in a novel way right this second.

Yeah, cuz like we don't have anything prepared anymore, whereas this whole show used to be prepared, but now it's just like, well, this is way more fun. Yeah, so that's very interesting that our shows did have that. Like you had the exploration, which I had exploration, but then I was repackaging it as, like I explored on my own, and then it was like, "Here's everything that I learned, and now I have it packaged in a nice little way," because that's a show that I would want.

Like I like those podcasts where people have already explored everything and then they're presenting the information to me. I like having the closure, I think, whereas you're just like, "We'll just see what happens." You're much more carefree.

Well, and I just I want to I want to seek the novelty.

Yeah.

But…

I like having the novelty pre-packaged and pre-planned.

-huh. But you do, like trips, too, and things. Like you have a lot more planned ahead of time.

Yeah, which we could dive into the psychology of that.

So, I want to I want to go back to the public-private. Like publicly to be interesting…

Yeah.

…privately to be understood. And that was something we were Like your podcast is, the goal of By Amara was always to be interesting.

-. Yeah, to be interesting and to teach other people how to be interesting so you could like at dinner or something or if you're bored of your spouse, you could be like, "Hey, we should talk. Did you know this?" And hopefully the conversation would go somewhere.

Like I'm like a dinner mint where you have like a little conversation starter on the package where it's like, "Oh, here's something you could know." Or like a Snapple cap.

Yeah, you and there's a little more of a mirror on that because And so this came up because it's how we approach social media differently. Not for clients. Like…

For our personal.

We Yeah, we have very laser-focused how we do it for clients because it works. It just flat out works. There's no question of Like it's irrefutable that what we do works.

We've done 12,000 videos in a couple years.

Yeah.

So like we know that part. But the personal, like I've never built a personal brand for me.

Which is hilarious.

I've built it for everyone else because like what works.

Yeah.

But then what's interesting is when we looked at it this way, I was like, "This is the most poignant thing because privately we want to be understood, publicly we want to be interesting." I don't care about anyone perceiving me in any way. So I don't care about being interesting. I've always used social media to be understood or help someone understand something, which isn't inherently interesting.

I'm trying to impart knowledge rather than create an interesting thing that people will gravitate towards say on social media. Like I like the one-on-one, where social media is Like this is a conversation, but social media is a presentation.

Which are such different things. But then you really thrive more in the presentation, and it's not as a bad thing of that interesting is a bad thing. It's a different approach.

You're wired more to be the person on social media and drawing attention in.

Yeah, cuz like I like So like something we've talked about for your content is me doing a MAVEN style shoot, which MAVEN is our video business, and it's what we do with other people where I…

WhatIsMaven.com.

…where I would prepare all the ideas and questions ahead of time and then just ask you them. But a roadblock we came up to was, "Well, if it's a hypothetical, it's not real," and then I can't, like there's there's so much nuance to some of these different questions and things, which does happen. Like obviously everything has nuance, but that was a specific roadblock that we hit where it was like, "Okay, this is interesting," which I still want to try it with you, but because it would be you presenting and broadcasting to people…

And that makes it completely different.

Exactly. And you would rather have the person there.

There's no stakes.

Exactly. And it would be very single-faceted, where you want a multi-faceted problem to solve. So it's like, okay, well if X, then Y.

Well then Y leads you to B, and then you go back to Z, and then you go back up to A, and like that's your that's your bread and butter, like that's where you thrive.

Just last week, I one of the partner one of my partners, sort of like clients, partner, sort of it's that's a fluid term with what we do for Inspira for the brand agency. Like he needed some data around things for very specific reasons. And I don't want to get into the reasons, it's irrelevant.

But I didn't even know what I was possibly going to give him in terms of analytics and like data points to be able to use for the thing that he needed.

Yeah.

And it was a little daunting because I'm just like, "I just have info. I have information, but how am I going to use it?" And I spent way more time than I had planned.

Like almost a whole day.

Yeah. But in the end, I was like, "I got there." Like by the end of the whole thing, I got to the nugget, the threads that were vital to convey the thing that was needed to be conveyed. And that is problem-solving.

That is finding a solution to a question that doesn't have an answer. Like I created the answer, and that I find satisfying. So the problem is if you're just like, " I'm going to…" This is whatever.

I'm going to choose WordPress because that was something before. Like before, like building websites using WordPress. But if you were just like, "Oh, what?

How does someone fix a WordPress site that's not working?" It's like, well, I can answer the ways you could fix it, but it's not interesting to me at all. But if you came in and you were just like, "This is happening right now. I've gone through all these different things, I've talked to this support, that support." I'm just like, "I got it." And then I'll then I'll be like, "Oh, it's because this here does that, and you need to do this and change that."

Yeah, that is your Super Bowl.

That's what I love.

That's my hell.

Yeah, I don't want I don't I don't really care to traverse a path that's already been traversed. I just It's not interesting to me. It needs to it needs to be a challenge.

Dot-dot-dot. You ended on an upward inflection.

I feel like I've been talking too much, and I'm like, you talk now.

You're saying it with your eyes. You're like, "I talk…"

I know! Well, yeah. I don't want it to be all, again, I don't want it to be about me.

I find I actually find what I'm saying right now not interesting. Because it's about me, you know? But sort of conceptually…

It's interesting because it's it's two different ways of thought. Cuz like for me, the entertaining is the most fun part for me. I like doing the research.

So like I do a lot of history content and then I do local content as well for our town. I like doing the back-end research of it because I know I'm going to be the one presenting it, and we do a lot of things with other people, and I do enjoy that, and like the preparation, but I have a way that I would present it where I'm like, "Oh, this would be so entertaining." But that's hard to get across to people just in general because it's like it's like being a director.

It is a little bit difficult if you have the vision of what you want, but then obviously everybody has different personalities where it's like, "Oh, yeah, this person would never present it the way that I'm presenting it." So then you need to take yourself out of it and be like, "Okay, how is this person going to present this?"

Yeah, this is an inside look into how you direct for MAVEN clients.

There's so much to it and nobody would have any idea, and that's perfect because that's the whole point. But it's like, "Okay, this is this person, this is how they want to be perceived online. How do we do that the most effective way and do it also where it is still entertaining, but still true to them?" Because you don't want to have certain people acting like woo-hoo-hoo, but that's so not who they are.

Cuz also, which we always talk about, if you meet someone in person versus online, we know that this has happened to people where they're like, "Well, they're so like one way online, and then I meet them in person and it's such a letdown." Or they're completely different, whether like or not.

That's sort of the influencer thing. It's people created a character.

Yeah, where their energy level is up here online, but then as soon as you meet them, they're like here and just not as positive.

Or just or yeah, what they do, like what they do online isn't how they live in their life because the character worked. But then that's a problem. It's like "Don't meet your heroes" kind of thing.

Like that comes from that. Like if I love this actor because of this one movie he's in, and then I meet him and I'm like, "Wait, you're not…" Daniel Craig.

Oh yeah. Love him as Bond.

He's not he's not James Bond. Like we know he's not James Bond. If we were to Yeah, if we were to meet him in person, it would definitely be disappointing because, "Wait, I wanted to meet James Bond Daniel Craig, not real person Daniel Craig." And the issue is like, that's fine in acting because that's their role is to play a character.

But then in real life when it comes to social media, like social media is that in-between kind of in the middle where you need to like how you say to everybody, like still be yourself, but crank it up to 1,000. So that doesn't mean…

I do say a little. The turn the metaphorical volume up.

To 1,000.

I don't say 1,000.

He says 9,000, and I was just toning it down a little bit because this guy is out of control. Him and his 1…

Did you hear me roll my eyes? I held the mic up to roll my eyes.

I saw it. Can you calm your eyes down? They are just being so loud.

I can't think with all this eye movement. Social media is that middle where you absolutely 100% still need to be yourself, but you also do need to be a little bit more you, like a little louder.

Yeah. Metaphorically louder.

Yeah, because the camera will absolutely zap the energy immediately. So, just like being a little bit more performative, because it is a performance at the end of the day, but still it's a very fine art. Cuz like acting, you're a completely different person.

That's one thing, you're totally immersed in being that person. Social media, though, is that gap between being real you, but then also being sort of other you or actor you, which a lot of people say you shouldn't be a different person, which you shouldn't, but you do need to be more entertaining, because if I if I was just talking sometimes like how I do when I talk low and quiet, that's so fucking boring!

And like…

How do you really talk?

I talk like this! I mean, kind of. Well yeah, like I'm different because I'm just nuts on camera or off camera.

I am just me, and I've gotten more comfortable with that the more I've done this stuff, cuz a lot of people, it is weird. Like you're not going to be normal and natural right away, and I've had people DM me and be like, "You're not who you were in high school," and I'm like, "Yeah, cuz I've grown as a human." But I digress.

But like you do still need to be as authentic to you as possible, just more like you drank like a bunch of caffeine and you're just like [sighs].

I would say only when it's for marketing purposes, but almost anyone who's listening to this isn't creating Yeah, just for clarity.

I'm thinking specifically for our clients that we work with. So yeah, like for marketing.

Yeah, anyone listening to this, like you're doing social media for marketing. That's it. Like there's no other reason to be strategically doing social media.

And if you're an actor portray a character or creating an entertaining show online, that's a completely different thing. But we're talking like you're here to be useful in some way to someone who then one day, because of your whole machine that you have built, will then decide to give you money so you have a successful business and you can grow and sort of feed that system.

Yeah, purely just to get attention for your business, whatever that is. Like you just need to turn it up a little bit. It doesn't have to be a ton, but you like you want people to watch your stuff, cuz otherwise why else are you putting it out there?

So, yeah, just be you, but a little more interesting.

Well yeah, and I think the we want to be understood and interesting. Like to me, all I care about is being understood.

So, what does being understood mean to you? Like what is that? Is it understanding that you're tall?

Is it understanding your ideas? Is it understanding that you ate breakfast? Like what is it?

Well, yeah, it's the understanding of ideas, and you know this!

I know, but the listener doesn't.

If I'm trying to tell you something and you don't get it, what's the feeling that you have?

Me?

Yeah.

If…

From me. What am I conveying to you when you don't get it?

Well, you don't get frustrated, but you're just you keep saying the same thing sometimes over and over, and I'm like, "No, I heard that. What's the next part?" And like you want me to know exactly what you mean, and you won't stop. Like you'll follow me through the house until you're like, "But you get what I'm saying, right?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm going to go take a dump now."

And then you'd expound what I said, and now I need to reinsert it into your brain.

Yeah, now you need to start over. So when I open the door, you're like, "So then do you get it now?"

No, but you know, because I do like We've sat at this table, and yeah, I say something and I'm like I sort of want to be at the next I set this up so then we talk about this, and then if you don't get this if for some reason how I explain this part doesn't click, that actually You said, "You don't get frustrated." I do get frustrated, but not outwardly where you're just like, "Will you just fucking listen?" You're just like…

No, I'm not frustrated at you, I'm frustrated at me because I wasn't able to convey it in a way where you understood. So then I'm like, "Oh, okay, wait, no. So, like you know this, and then that, and the…" You're like, "No, you just said that." I'm like, "But I said it a different way, I'm hoping to help you understand it."

You're like, "I said 'the' instead of 'a'."

I don't do that.

No, I know.

But that's what matters to me. So But it's so interesting because when we were talking, it's that's That's why I'm not as wired for social media as the like figure.

Because my focus is just it's just inherently just how I'm wired. It's just elsewhere. And yeah, we just thought it was interesting.

Sorry, not a good time to choke.

Because you want to Like you're more wired to be interesting, entertaining, and the things. But that's why…

Well, because I've always loved being an entertainer. Like that has always lit me up, and I tried to suppress it because I don't know, it's just it's it's a different, tricky sort of thing. But like I've always loved entertaining and like making people feel a certain way, and like the way that you can do that, I just find endlessly fascinating.

But then, yeah, the one-on-one stuff to me can be a little bit boring sometimes. But like I love when I see you, like if we go to a conference or something, where you find someone that you mesh with, and then I like go talk to 85 other people in that time span, and you're still talking to the same person, and then you're having a really good conversation, and I'm like, "Oh, how cute!" I don't know, that fills me with glee.

Glee?

Glee. Not the show.

Okay.

Sorry, my throat is really tickling.

Yeah, so, next week we are heading to LA…

Next week. Are you closing out the show?

…to film. I was just going to say we might We're considering recording this one on the road next week.

Oh, we could literally do it when we drive, or even in our second destination.

Well, like it's better to be stationary, because I want to have a good one-on-one conversation.

Yeah. Yeah, you do. Would you ever…

Cuz like I know you like certain people, the way that they conduct a crowd or something, like Jared Leto and things like that.

Oh, yeah, back in the day with, yeah, 30 Seconds to Mars.

Do you think that would ever be you? Cuz like, okay, let me say, if it was public speaking, how would you feel about that? Cuz it is almost like you're talking one-on-one, but you're talking one-on-one to 1,000, 2,000, 10,000 people.

But see, that's a presentation, not a conversation. So that does fit the mold still. It's the interesting versus understood.

Like I can, cuz I've done stuff. I've done speaking when it comes to health wellness, and I've considered other things moving forward. But we've talked about doing it together, because that would also be novel.

That would be an interesting thing that is very rare.

There's a few who do it, but our spin on it would be very different than everyone else. And that I find more satisfying. If I did decide to go down any of these paths of the different topics and things that I find interesting, like if I if I ever got around to writing a book and all of this stuff, then it would be different, but I feel like I just never will because it's the whole it's not what you say you want to do, it's what you actually do.

So like I have these things I want to do that I haven't done in a very long time, so it's like that's not really what I want to do.

Yeah. Well, yeah, and it just it comes in seasons and everything.

It's so fascinating. I don't know, I just had the thought of like when we look back on this podcast in the future, just what it's going to feel like, cuz I had a TikTok thing pop up the other day, and it was like, "On this day, you made this video," and I was like, "That is such a bad video!" And it's from three or four years ago, but it was when I, or no, five now, when I started on TikTok, and I was like, "Oh my god, that's so bad!"

Well, like these episodes on my podcast, there were like three of them or four of them of Side Hustle Saturday, it was the two of us.

Oh, god, I forgot about that!

So we actually we actually have some documentation of you exploring to see what you could do to sort of leave working in academia.

See, again, it's you like to be behind the scenes more so, where you're the facilitator and you're the host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris, on kidneystonediet.com.

Yeah, that's that podcast, and that's what I've done to help other people as well.

I was going to say, and all the other people like the Minns and everything, too. Like you're behind the scenes and then they're the front of house. That is very funny, that is just like your thing, which I know this obviously, I've known you for a long time.

It's not like I'm just coming to this realization, but just in relation to this quote, it feels like it's two different personality types, where you have which maybe there's more, but it's it's the people who yeah, like to entertain because it is like the attention and everything, but you only need the attention from a couple I'm going to say "important," or like people who matter in that moment, that's all you care about.

That's very interesting.

But it's the understood, cuz I don't care about attention. That's And I know…

Yeah.

…it's I know people are wired for attention because you see it. I don't actually get it as much because I don't really care about it. I want the outcomes, I want to create outcomes and that is satisfying for me.

Right. And I think for me, I see the attention as the way to get the outcome for me.

Absolutely. No, we've talked about that before. Like the power of building a brand and a personal brand and all these things is immense.

Exactly. Cuz like I personally, I am fine being on camera. Like now I do enjoy it, but before I did not want to be on camera because it just wasn't the thing that I liked.

Like I liked being behind the scenes, too, but having a personal brand is extremely important, especially nowadays, cuz with AI, like you can make absolutely anything now, but if you don't have you, cuz like at the end of the day, you the human is always going to be unique. So, if you and not unique like snowflake unique, but just like we are all unique, so it's like finding the person that you resonate with and like why do you listen to a certain person versus a different person.

Building your personal brand is the most important thing you can do, and especially right now, because it does feel like, I don't know, not that it is, but it does feel like it's going to get progressively more difficult to get that attention and to keep the attention. So, building now while you can and while maybe social media is free versus in the future probably won't be…

Well, distribution is free right now, so social media could go away. Like things change with time, but we've never had a time like this where distribution is free. That's crazy!

Like you would pay to be on TV, pay to be on the radio, pay to be in the newspaper or magazine…

Pay to get your books published, like back to the printing press.

Yeah, just everything. Like now you can do anything you want. Like you can publish a book on Amazon.

There's something like 4,200 books published on Amazon every day.

That's crazy!

That's not from publishers, most of those are from people who sat down and either wrote a book or now went to ChatGPT and generated a book and publish it.

Exactly.

And most books don't sell 10 copies. Like… You have a drinking problem!

[laughs]

And that's funny because she just spilled on her hoodie, and you might not be able to see it. Oh no, I think you can see it. But…

We always joke that she has a drinking problem because she literally spills every time she drinks something.

All the time. This is why I just wear black shirts, cuz I always spill on myself.

See, that's the entertaining part of you, too, though. You give a "because," where it's not "because" you spilled that you wear black shirts, but your inherent thing is to "yes, and" and give a reason that's entertaining, and then people can be like, "You wear black shirts cuz you spill all the time?"

It's like, no, because I used to sweat terribly in high school and I wanted to hide my sweat stains.

But see, you say that, too, but you also like black.

Oh yeah, I love black.

Like that's just the look that we like. But it's funny…

But no, like it actually came from So here's my etymology. I used to not like wearing black…

Origin story.

…and I didn't come from Origin, I came from Arizona.

Portland, Origin?

I used to actually not like wearing black, because I thought it was so dark, and in Arizona, it's fucking hot, in case you've never heard of it. So…

Hot, you say?

Interesting. But wearing black, it would attract the sun, so it was like, "Oh my god, any other color except for black." But I would sweat so much because it was hot, and I thought I had hyperhidrosis. It turns out I had normal sweat glands, but I just I burned them off, so I guess maybe I didn't, but I digress.

But I sweat so much…

You didn't actually, because people do laser off sweat glands.

No, I did. It wasn't laser, but it was like a solution thing, like a thing that you put on your armpits, sweetie, what are you doing? It burned so fucking bad!

It was terrible, but I just wanted it to stop, so anyway. I did that, and then I still would sweat a lot, so then I started This is such a long, stupid story, but then I started wearing black shirts because you couldn't see my sweat as much, cuz like it would be on my back, like armpits, like everywhere, and no other girls besides me and my best friend in high school, we would be the sweatiest two and nobody else would look like they sweat or anything, and as a teenage girl, that's like the worst thing is like being fucking sweaty and gross, and it's like, "ew, what's wrong with you?" So anyway, that's why I started wearing mostly black, and now I just I like it, cuz it looks cool.

Do I look cool?

You look so cool and interesting.

Aw!

I want to be your friend.

My friend? Do you want to be my best friend?

Yes!

Yay!

I feel like we were going somewhere else before, I forget now.

Yeah, armpits.

Yeah, before my armpits, before my high school trauma…

I don't know.

…and being interesting and entertaining, and you say, "That's why I wear black because I spill on my shirt all the time." But that's not the only reason, that was all it is, is you go for the entertaining. See, you go for the entertaining thing, and my gut is to be like, "No, like she wears black because she likes it, she's not clumsy." No, I know, but like my I want to be understood, like because I want the perception of you that other people have matters to me, not for me, for you.

No, but I because you're so smart and so funny and so I'm okay….just perfect. You are.

Spill water all over the front of me.

But like I know you always downplay everything to other people and to yourself, so I always feel like I want people to know like, "Oh no, like you don't discount her."

I think because Okay, this is getting way too psychological, but I remember reading in I forget what it was, I think it was a biography…

Around the World in 80 Days?

Yes. Heath Ledger?

I think so.

I think so.

I thought you were going to say How to Win Friends and Influence People, so then I was doing the opposite.

I don't think I've ever read that book. I'm going a totally different route.

Yeah, I realized that after I said it, I'm like, not as funny, not as interesting.

Clearly!

But I had to explain why I said it so I would be understood.

This is ridiculous, this is too meta. I read a biography on Andy Warhol, I've read a lot a lot a lot of them, but one of the things that he did, which I find so fascinating, which I have done a little bit, which cuz I just find it funny, I like to mess with people a lot, clearly, and one of the things he would do is he would give different tidbits of information to different news outlets, or like magazines, reporters, TV, whatever, he would tell them a wide array of different shit, so nobody actually knew anything about him, which I found so funny and fascinating, cuz like I love that, like I want to do that!

So I would do that sometimes. I think I still do it to this day, just because I find it really funny. I don't know, I just like fucking with people.

Cuz like I don't feel like I need to be understood, I just want to make you laugh, or cry, or angry with contempt! No, most of the time laugh, unless you piss me off, then I'll make you cry.

That's what I want to say. That's what I wanted to say is, no, she doesn't want she just wants to make you laugh. Like what is this?

Am I We've watched Rick Glassman Take Your Shoes Off podcast, and now in this conversation, I'm like, "Am I just him?" Like not him, but there's some…

Oh god, am I Lisa Gilroy? Could be a lot worse!

But there are things… There's there's things. There's quirks, we all have quirks, and my I have some quirks that are similar to his, but I think he's a little further down that quirk lane, if you will.

Touch of the 'tiz.

Cuz it's it's the… Well, I think also, we're not going to go down this path, but you can also trace it to like childhood and upbringing and things like that, too, for both of us, where there's certain reasons why we are the way we are, which I find that shit fascinating. So if I want to know anything about you, I will always ask about your childhood and like favorite childhood memory and shit, and if somebody can't figure, like doesn't have one immediately…

I find that interesting. I'm not going to tell you what it means, but… No, I always I love asking people that.

So she doesn't actually know what it means, so she doesn't…

Actually, what's your favorite childhood memory?

Well, that's the funny thing, cuz you said if they don't have one. So, I was like, where are you going with that? Because I wouldn't have anything specific that comes to mind instantly.

I have a couple ideas of what I think it would be.

Because mine is a collection of memories, not a memory.

Yeah.

Cuz I didn't have real strong moments that stick out. We never traveled, we never did anything like that.

But the But your favorite memory is in the summertime, being out with your friends and playing sports until dark, and then going home, and then waking up and doing it again.

-huh, yeah.

Like I would say that for sure is.

Yeah, everything. Like baseball, wiffle ball, basketball, football, like just everything.

So, it doesn't even have to be one select memory, it could be that feeling of whatever that was.

Yeah. And that was non-stop competition every single day of my life, like trying to win. That was like that's what I loved.

And be understood on the ball field.

Not understood, because your abilities…

Like "I let my fists do the talking."

…speak for themselves, and that's how I operate in life, too. Like I don't tell people what I can do, I like to show people what I can do.

So you're like a fart, silent but deadly.

While you do entertain everyone. Or be the most interesting one. No.

As I talk about farts. -huh. So, maybe we should wrap there. We're actually almost at 40 minutes.

Really?

-huh.

Wow. Cool.

Okay, so I think we're going to… I have to pee really bad….we're going to bring the mics with to LA. Where's mic?

I'm exhausted in real life. We have this little this little recorder, these mics, super portable, so we might bring it with, and maybe you'll see us from the road next week.

I wonder, can you hear when you sniff into a mic?

Yeah. Oh, you can definitely hear that.

Nice.

Why would you not hear it?

I don't know.

It's picking up audio.

What? What is this? I think I was heavily breathing at one point into it.

And that's fine. I always bring mine down here when I'm not talking.

I know, I tried to, but at one point I was like… I realized it halfway through, I like I had like a deep exhale, and I think I did it directly into the mic, so, sorry.

That's fine, it shouldn't be crazy.

You know my lung capacity. I feel so much more me now when we do the podcast like this.

-huh, because you're not trying to check You don't have an objective of trying to say certain sentences.

Yeah, cuz it feels like I'm trying to say something insightful, and that's just fucking not me. Like I will just have a good time.

This is the thing. I would always enjoy trying to get the topic understood,

Yeah.

…but you would show up with an objective of things that you wanted to say. So then when I would jump in and do what we do here where I interrupt you,

I was like, "Up, up, up, up."

…then you would like you would maybe get upset a little because you're like, "I was trying to get somewhere with that."

I'm like, "I'm going to put you in a headlock."

But isn't it funny? Because that's not who you are, but you had the…

Well, because it's the stress, because I want it to be perfect, and I want it to be done well, cuz if I'm going to try to teach someone something, I want it to be as true as possible and… Truth is subjective… But as true as possible and a complete thought.

And then if we would go down a different way, I'd be like, "I didn't get my fucking clip!" So then it would just be the stress of that, so.

Yeah. So everything I say… Everything I say will be fact, but it won't all be true.

! That was a really good movie.

Yeah, that was from Frankenstein, we watched it yesterday. Guillermo del Toro…

Guillermo del Toro.

…that. We watched yesterday, really good. But that line really got me.

That was like the first two seconds.

Yeah, he's just like, "Everything I say will be fact, but it won't all be true." I mean, I don't even know if that's just nonsense, and that's why it like strikes me, or if it's just…

That's why I wanted to talk to you about that last night…

-huh.

…because what do you think that means? Cuz you also had another quote where I was just like, "Oh yeah," like what, "my now is now and your now is then," or whatever, and I was like, "Oh yeah, that makes sense," and you're like, "What the fuck?"

Well, yeah, we all see things differently.

Yeah.

Oh, that just made me think real quick. You said I said that. When you say like, "That's why he hits me, and blah, blah, blah," like joking around, I always want to be like, "I never would do anything like that."

And that's why it's funny!

But the there's always that part of me. Like, you don't say that I hit you, but you say things like I berate you verbally. That's what it is, that I like…

Oh yeah, he's just like, "What are you doing, you stupid cow?"

Yeah, like things that I would never say.

Yeah, cuz that's what's funny, because you're the gentlest… You would be literally the last person… People would think I berate you all the time more, like just 100%.

But see, this is the thing, I like to be understood. So when you do that, that I'm always like, because I there's times when people are like, "Really?" And I'm like, "No, I have never said that to her."

Well and I'm like…

But because people don't know me, because I don't convey, I don't talk about me, so no one really knows me other than you.

I stopped saying that because I find it funny because it's the complete 100% opposite of who you are. Like you would literally rather do anything else other than hurt anybody.

Well, yeah.

And like animals especially.

Well, and you are everything. Like I… But, like, you know what I mean?

Like I would never do anything, I don't want to upset you ever.

No, I know. And likewise. But yeah, that's that's just what makes the joke funny to me.

To you, but then I'm always just like, "Oh god, people think I'm so bad here."

That's why I stopped doing it! I stopped doing it, cuz I know you're like, "What are you doing?"

But it's that understanding. It's just funny, it all comes like this is such a poignant thing.

Sweetie, you can't do that.

What?

No, just how you sat. Anyway, the Frankenstein thing, really quickly. The "Everything I say is fact, but it's not all true." Not all true.

Isn't that so insightful?

It's like a it's like people don't write like…

People don't write like that anymore, it feels. So many people don't write like that, which I wonder if that actually came from the book? I think it did.

I haven't read that book in a very long time.

Yeah, I don't know.

But that's so interesting because it's all the list of events as it occurred, so almost like the chronology of like, "I did this, I made this monster, this happened afterward," like you can verify all those things because like this person died or this person did this or whatever, but the way that you get there, cuz then it was the creature's tale in the second part.

So then he has his own perspective, so it goes back to perspective where it's like, well, these are the absolute facts, like I was made on this day, this person died, then this happened, then I ended up here, but the way that you get there is so wildly different.

Well, because there's no objective truth.

Exactly.

Because my truth is different than your truth.

Exactly.

Like you saying a thing, it's a joke. The truth to me is like they believe you, and the truth to you is like, "That's just funny." So, it's like a different truth, but the fact is the same thing.

Exactly.

Yeah, that's weird. But yeah, the other quote was like "My now is not your now and but your then is my then, but not my now is your now because then is then."

Something like that. Precisely that. No, but it was one of those cyclical things, and you're like, "Oh yeah," and I'm like…

I need to like stew on this. I can't like For that one specifically, I'm again, I'm not saying the actual quote, it's not that.

Yeah, it's not that. I just spit everywhere. It's not that crazy, but it is like the I forget exactly, but it was like, "Your now is not my now, but my now could be your then." It was something along the lines of that, cuz that made so much sense to me immediately.

It almost felt like a Shakespearean quote, but it was purely just It was from What was it from? Some a book on time?

Ooh, I know the book now. That's what I was trying to I'm going to try to look it up. Entertain the crowd.

Okay. You want to see me pull my thumb off? Or do you want to hear it? [pops mouth] Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

I really have to pee. I ate way too much drinkage. I want a peppermint mocha.

See, I have nothing insightful to say right now, I'm just…

You have to entertain, you want to be interesting.

Oh god. What's something new I just learned? Oh, the ancient Romans actually used to use a mixture of concrete that had fuck, something in it where it actually makes it adhere, so like if it would crack and then it would rain, it would actually immediately fix itself because of the chemical compound.

Something that we don't do now.

Yeah, which is so stupid, cuz then it's like, well, why wouldn't you just do that now, because then it just I don't know, I guess it…

Well, we never figured it out. I think that was the thing, is they had to reverse engineer it, and they only recently did.

Yeah, maybe something like that. Something, something.

It doesn't look like it's actually in that from that book.

Really? Wasn't it just the time book that you were reading?

Yeah, but I think it might be another time book.

But see, this is the weird thing when we read several things at once, they seem to overlap somehow.

So, you're What, are you reading The Daily Laws?

Well yeah, that I am going through, but also…

I swear to god every single one every single day, with a few exceptions, has been completely spot on. That is so weird. For like any little thing that we're dealing with in the moment or thinking about or whatever.

It's weird timing.

Yeah. Can you just Google the quote?

I don't exactly remember what it is, so we're just going down a rabbit hole here.

Hold on, I want to see if I can find it. You entertain the crowd for a second.

Entertain. Did you know, fun fact, the expression "turn of the century" did not exist until 1900. No one was thinking forward about time.

They were only thinking sort of about the past, and the exploration that happened before the turn of the 19th century was land exploration. So, exploring new islands, exploring new locations on this planet, but we actually weren't thinking beyond land until we almost discovered everything. Like, Utopia is a book, and Utopia was a location, not a future destination of the world, which is something that seems really interesting, cuz now we think about the future.

Like utopia, dystopia is only a future-looking, holistic view where before, the only future look was into individuals. So, say a like a mystic or someone who reads the clouds and things, these were for individual future-looking people, not holistically as a society. I found that really interesting.

We live in a society. How you doing over there?

I cannot find it. Was it a Nietzsche quote? Do you remember?

I don't remember. It should have been highlighted, so I don't…

Cuz I keep getting this other quote, and I'm like, "I don't want that shit." That's a really good quote by Nietzsche: "There are no facts, only interpretations." We're We're just slowly winding down this episode.

Yep. There are a lot of love quotes related to this. [whistles] Anyway, I can't find it, but it was very interesting, but essentially the whole thing was like, "Okay, well what we're experiencing right now, I'm experiencing it now, but you might not be in the same boat or the same frame of mind, but then you will experience it in the future, but then that's already happened for me, that's already in the past, but right now it's your future."

Well, yeah, and it's perception. My now, your then, let's see if this works.

-huh.

Also, isn't it fascinating everything that we're experiencing right now is already in the past? Like because of the way that our eyes and our bodies work, this is already in the past. My thoughts right now are in the past.

That breaks my brain.

Cuz it doesn't hit my ears instantly.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's all weird stuff. We should probably wrap up.

Probably.

Like, this is fun, I like doing these like this.

This is going to be…

I feel like no one is still here with us, so it's just this is this part is just for us. What do you want to talk about?

Well yeah. I don't know, what do you want for dinner?

That's not that exciting.

Sure it is. You don't think that's an insight into what people…

One more thing. So, you want to keep meals interesting.

Yes.

I don't care.

Glad to know all my hard work goes to something!

No, but you know, like I'll make the same thing over and over.

Yeah, you will literally just have ground beef with liver in it over rice every day until…

Like that is that's I feel like that's also telling, cuz you want to entertain, you want you want it to be interesting.

So I want everything to be an experience, always.

But see, that's what's weird is I also want novelty, only. See, it's picking and choosing where the novelty…

But you didn't know novelty until you met me.

It's picking and choosing where the novelty is, cuz in the conversations one-on-one, the novelty there I find interesting. Sort of group stuff tends to be less deep, so I don't find it as interesting.

Well yeah, if it's especially a group dinner, I fucking hate that stuff.

Other than the one we had exactly a year ago, like two weeks ago. That was the best group dinner ever.

That was the only dinner, like literally before that, we had promised ourselves no more group dinners, because everyone was a dumpster fire. It was so bad.

Every dinner, not every person.

Every person. No, there was only that was the only group dinner that I have ever enjoyed, and I would do forever again into the future. That was the only one.

Yeah, it's a dinner where we're bonded with the people from that dinner. Now, smaller dinners, like thinking like Mike and Lisa, like four of us, that's perfect. But we're talking like…

Oh yeah, even six, six is my threshold, even then it starts to get a little much, but…

Yeah, I'd say six is a lot. Even five is pushing it, but it's like when we have a small group, like four people, totally. That's basically one-on-one again.

Yeah. Yeah, I like the especially yeah, for a meal, I only want to share dinner with people that I actually want to be there with, but when you get a group dinner, you get like 75 tables and there's 100 people, and then it's just chaos, and it's just not my thing. Cuz you don't yeah, you don't get to bond with people.

So at the end of the day, I do still like to bond with people,

…but people I want to bond with.

Yeah, Daniel Craig. Okay, with that, I think we'll wrap. James Bond.

Okay, I think this was fun.

You like to entertain.

-huh.

Me?

Oh, I do like to enter You're the one. That's it. I don't really try to entertain anyone else.

I make you laugh so hard when you didn't even expect it. Make you, made you, that…

I fell in love with you.

…I win again. -huh.

It was in that moment.

Anyway. -huh. Okay, I think we'll wrap and we'll pick this up in a few days when we're in LA.

Nobody's listening to this at this point.

Oh, we are.

Yeah, we are. Bye. Hello, future us.

Goodbye, past us.

We're not listening in the future.

Yeah, we are. I am.

You're going to re-listen to this?

Sure.

When we're old and gray?

The Grays.

Goodbye.

Bye!

Bye.